Round-table of Trolls Attacks David Ray Griffin and Pushes the Official Story of 9/11

by Scott Creighton

UPDATE: Welcome 9/11Blogger community. Welcome to my site. Welcome to my 9/11 Truth “cult”, as Jon Gold just described it. You know what’s sad? Two years ago before I was banned at 9/11Blogger, had someone calling themselves a Truth advocate dared to use such an emotionally loaded Curley Joe Screw Loose Change buzz-word label as “cult” to describe fellow Truth advocates, the backlash would have been tremendous. But over there now, in the echo chamber of Sunstein contractors… nothing. You guys go on pushing the official story of 9/11 to your hearts content. Here, we are a little more dedicated to our efforts. Have fun guys and enjoy the site. And don’t worry, I don’t erase comments on this site like Blogger does.

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I just listened to yet another personal attack on David Ray Griffin from fake Truth advocates. It’s a pod-cast of some sort with Jon Gold, John Albanese and Nicholas Filippelli. They suggest that Griffin is a disinfo agent and that he’s just in it to make money, since he has written so many books on the subject.  Of course, they keep saying it’s not an attack on Griffin per se, but they do say things like “if he is actually selling lies instead of the truth, then I don’t care what his name is“.  (Albanese actually repeats this talking point in a heated discussion at Blogger, once again accusing David Ray Griffin of “selling lies”) They associate him and his work with buzzwords like “loony“, “Bigfoot“, “cult“, “birther movement“, and “ray beams from space” while all the time trying their best to drag the Truth movement back into the “rational” world of the official story of 9/11.  There’s even some clips of them pissing on most of the controlled demolition evidence as well. But their focus is clearly a personal attack on David Ray Griffin using every trollish, dishonest, trick in the book. They mention that they are aware of a rather large backlash against them resulting from their recent attacks on Griffin, but it seems they just can’t help but dig themselves in even deeper. Trolls will be trolls.

Very instructive tape if you wish to figure out who the fake Truth movement is and what they are all about.

Details on that in a moment.

The fake Truth movement (Truth Action, 9/11 Blogger, 9/11 Truth News, Journal of 9/11 Studies, Pump it out, Citizens Investigation Team, Jim Hoffman, and conservative BYU puppet Steven Jones, Jon Gold, Cosmos,  John Albanese, Victoria Ashley, Erik Larson, Frank Legge, KDUB, Bill Hicks, John Bursill,  Dwain Deets, and Gregg Roberts) is alive and well and working extra hard to finally put an end to the unofficial grass-roots investigation into the events of 9/11.  Their recent well-organized and cowardly attacks on one of the few remaining untainted leaders of the Truth movement, David Ray Griffin, has caused them a little unexpected backlash from several other honest truth advocates.

It’s gotta worry them that recently there have been a series of revelations that don’t bode well for their Cass Sunstein type efforts, namely the release of the National Research Council’s report about the anthrax attacks which shows that the FBI not only botched their second attempt to frame an innocent man, but that they seem to have worked very diligently to cover-up their mistakes afterwards. Since it’s that same FBI who produced much of the “evidence” the fake Truth activists use to try to bring real Truth advocates back around to the official story of 9/11, it casts even more doubt on their dubious efforts.

“The National Research Council issued a report Tuesday questioning any link between a flask of anthrax bacteria at Bruce E. Ivins’ lab at Fort Detrick, MD, and the anthrax-dusted letters that killed five people while causing 17 others to become sick.

… The report conceded that there were genetic similarities, but not enough to conclude that the anthrax in the deadly attacks had come from Ivins’ lab. In addition, the report said that the FBI had failed to adequately explore other possibilities that could have accounted for those genetic similarities. ” Headline News

Now remember, the FBI rushed an “investigation” into Dr. Ivins only after their first suspect, Steven Hatfill, successfully sued them for $5.82 million dollars for trying to frame him for the attack.

It’s also recently come to light that the U.S. Chamber of Commerce was aided by the Obama Justice Department in an effort to undermine certain politically active writers, blogs, and groups in ways very reminiscent of the old CoIntelPro techniques of the 60s and 70s.  The Justice Department recommended that the Chamber use three defense and intelligence contractors who apparently had a system already in place for the criminal effort. The three contractors, HBGary Federal, Berico Technologies & Palantir Technologies, calling themselves Team Themis, offered various suggestions but one specifically sounds rather familiar to those of us in the Truth movement who have been talking about this gimmick for years.

The plan also involved creating “two fake insider personas“, one at VR and another at the unrelated Change To Win organization, which had employed a coalition of union groups to create a non-profit campaign, some months after VR’s, called U.S. Chamber Watch. The plan presented by Team Themis, as the three security firms called themselves, would then use one of the “fake personas” as “leverage to discredit the other while confirming the legitimacy of the second” in hopes of publicizing the fraudulent appearance of some sort of “conspiracy” between the various progressive organizations in order to somehow discredit them.”  Brad Blog

HBGary for instance boasts of previous experience in fields of both “influence operations” and “social media exploitation” in their Team Themis proposal.  HBGary’s CEO, a man by the name of Arron Barr, lists his credentials:

“… the Chief Engineer for Northrop Grumman’s Cyber Campaign… Mr. Barr has pioneered many uses of the Internet and new media for the purposes of conduction broad information operations campaigns for key intelligence customers.”  Team Themis proposal

The Team Themis proposal suggests that HBGary and others have already been engaged in influence operation campaigns of this sort in the past and their contracting with the defense and state departments seem to be extensive. Now, if we compare that to what we know Cass Sunstein was writing about in 2008, we can pretty much figure that some of these operations more than likely dealt with “conspiracy theory” groups… namely, the Truth movement.

We suggest a distinctive tactic for breaking up the hard core of extremists who supply conspiracy theories: cognitive infiltration of extremist groups, whereby government agents or their allies (acting either virtually or in real space, and either openly or anonymously) will undermine the crippled epistemology of believers (1)by planting doubts about the theories and stylized facts that circulate within such groups, thereby (2) introducing beneficial cognitive diversity.”

… government agents “might enter chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups and attempt to undermine percolating conspiracy theories by raising doubts about their factual premises, causal logic or implications for political action.”  Cass Sunstein, President Obama’s regulatory czar

The contractors (who claim to already have vast successful experience in this field) layout a plan to infiltrate certain groups, use other sacrificial fakes (think Judy Woods, Morgan Reynolds, CIT) in order to garner their primary fakes (Jones, Roberts, Hoffman,Legge) leadership status in the movement. Then they can skillfully enact what Cass Sunstein was talking about when he called for “introducing beneficial cognitive diversity” which in this case translates to bringing the members of the movement, step by step, back into line with the official story of 9/11 or using flawed studies such as the BYU paid for “nanothermite” paper or CIT’s “flyover” research to discredit it.

Recent success these trolls have enjoyed with their CIT disinfo campaign and the current illness of David Ray Griffin which leaves him incapable of defending his work on Blogger and other sites has combined to embolden these contractors to use this moment to attempt a convoluted smear campaign against him and his years of research, fronted by one Erik Larson.

I went to Blogger to re-read some of the comments and post links to those which were supportive of DRG and guess what I found? Many of the best of them had been erased by the controlled opposition leaders at 9/11 Blogger. But don’t worry, some were saved elsewhere.

The following is an email sent from John Parulis which deals with this very issue. I found it at WTCDemolition.

Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 3:20 PM

Dear Friends. This post is why I was just kicked off of 911blogger. 911blogger, in my opinion, has been infiltrated by a sophisticted team and misguided by its headstrong and reactionary leadership.

I continue to work in the Truth Movement regardless. While 911blogger is an important mouthpiece for the movement it isn’t the sole source of information on 9/11. Now it appears to be a corrupted source at that.

John Parulis

I recently ran across an audio recording of several of these fakes talking about Dr. Griffin on their pod-cast and though they try to distance themselves from the obvious backlash against this obvious attack by claiming they are only reviewing the validity of his research, they launch right into a personal attack on Griffin by trying to falsely associate him with the likes of Morgan Reynolds and other disinfomation agents; the obvious implication being that David Ray Griffin is in fact a disinfo agent.

“There were certain people that I thought, it was inconceivable to me that there would be people out there that didn’t have the best intentions at heart…”

“Some of these members want 9/11 Truth to be about one thing, controlled demolition, which may or may not be true… or the faked cell phone calls… those people put us in the same category as the birther movement

“There’s a whole conspiracy industry out there and a lot of people just want to make moneyyou know, David Ray Griffin, he does sell books. He’s written 14 of them. And he does profit from this…. if he is actually selling lies instead of the truth, then I don’t care what his name is”  fake Truther roundtable

Now at one point the guy conducting the lynching (uh… interview) slips up and mentions that a previous personality he interviewed made some statement about Dr. Griffin leading off with these “lies” at a talk, but he messed up and at first said it was “Comos”, then he corrected himself by giving the other name Cosmos blogs and operates under.  This is important because quite often these contractors create multiple personas online and they use them to attempt to create a false consensus of artificially stimulated group-think surrounding their misinformation. This process was also confirmed in the recent HBGary case, but has been suspected by real Truth advocates for years.

“While there are certainly legitimate applications for such software, such as managing multiple “official” social media accounts from a single input, the more nefarious potential is clear.

Unfortunately, the Air Force’s contract description doesn’t help dispel suspicions. As the text explains, the software would require licenses for 50 users with 10 personas each, for a total of 500. These personas would have to be “replete with background , history, supporting details, and cyber presences that are technically, culturally and geographacilly consistent.” Raw Story

As the David Ray Griffin bashing continued their LIHOP (official story of 9/11 plus “foreknowledge”) agenda became quite evident…

“As he (DRG) led off with his phone calls theory, when he could have led off with better evidence like foreknowledge ect. ect. ect., people left)’

“He (DRG) makes his case about 9/11 with cell phone fakery, planes missing at the Pentagon, and hijackers turning up alive. These are things that the Truth movement has debunked… he leaves out of his book stuff that … may not show conspiracy, but shows a lack of truthfulness on the part of the government… this might stimulate journalists to ask questions… missing planes at the Pentagon are not going to be taken seriously by real researchers, real intellectuals, and adults… this is the difference between the adult camp and those who want to turn this into a cult”  fake Truther roundtable

The Truth movement never “debunked” these things. Jim Hoffman and Gregg Roberts ran a campaign for years trying to undermine credibility of whatever the strongest evidence we had at the time was and that disinfo campaign started with the Pentagon. Since then Roberts has moved over to help undermine Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth as that became a real source for legitimacy of the Truth movement. Since that time, Roberrts has pushed them to incorporate more and more of Steven Jones’ flawed “nanothermite” research into their writing, brought a CDI employee over to help promote the idea that det cord wasn’t used in the demolition of the Twin Towers, and used Steven Jones himself to embarrass Richard Gage during his press conference celebrating over a thousand engineers who have signed his petition for a new investigation.

Back to the “roundtable” character assault on an ill David Ray Griffin… these guys can’t even bring themselves to say out loud that members of the government entered into a conspiracy prior to 9/11 saying that a “lack of truthfulness” is about as far as they would go. That’s pretty amazing for some guys who are trying to pretend to be in the Truth movement.

At one point Jon Gold has to admit that Erik Larson put his article on David Ray Griffin in his “disino” category on his site, clearly intending infer that David Ray Griffin was disinfo. Jon goes on to explain how close he and Erik Larson are and have been for a couple of years. Yeah, I guess they are. They work for the same company. Later, one of them actually equates 9/11 research with a bigfoot sighting.  Does that sound like a Truth advocate or someone from ScrewLoseChange?

This audio disaster should make it very clear what these people are and how desperate they have become to try to cling to their control of the Truth movement. What has happened, they mention it in the recording, is that many people, most people, have reacted very negatively to their smear on David Ray Griffin. They overreached and in so doing they exposed themselves for what they are… controlled opposition or pure contractors like HBGary working on a Sunstein-like contract for the defense or state department, infiltrating the Truth movement, then trying to steer its members back to the official story of 9/11.

When finally asked what each of them think the Truth movement should focus on, it was all about ignored warnings, foreknowledge of pending attacks from the evil Muslims, put-options, and their big cause… get ready for it… is yet another 9/11 Commission type congressional “investigation”, which will of course, get to the bottom of the Truth, according to them, not just another silly whitewash with a few patsys set up to take a fall for having not done enough with their foreknowledge of Muslim attacks. And that makes this very clear, folks. That should prove to you, with their own words, what these guys are.

Whenever they comment or open their mouths in the future we should make it very clear that we know exactly what they are. Eventually, if we do not let them off the hook, if they are contractors, then their clients will see how ineffective they are and cancel their contracts… and they go away. At least, these exposed incarnations will. Surely they will simply dial-up yet another persona and try again, or they will try other means. But first we have to say that we can’t let them off the hook. They have completely exposed themselves as official story believers and contractors working to undermine our efforts.  We have to answer every post they leave with links to Cass Sunstein articles or HBGary articles… just let them know we don’t need them anymore.

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45 Responses

  1. Hey Scott,

    I’ve been reading your site for awhile…great stuff all around. I recently came across the site you’re referring to and saw the hit piece on DRG. As soon as I read the line about “don’t question whether the phone calls may have been faked, because it hurts the family members feelings” my BS detector went right through the roof. That is directly out of the MSM playbook, ala Sean Hannity and other clowns.

    Keep up the great work.

  2. Thanks Matt:

    I found this statement in a text that had been either erased from Blogger’s thread or it was an email that John Parulis sent to the admins at Blogger after his comments had been put on moderation. Parulis is one of the founders of AE911Truth who has been disrespected in the same fashion you are talking about after he tried to stand up for Griffin’s work and Griffin himself after they launched this attack on him.

    “We are naive beyond belief to think that here at 911blogger we have not been infiltrated. It most likely happened last year at AE911Truth and I was in the thick of it and learned some valuable lessons. Unlike many of you here, I have experience with infiltration that led to the death by French Secret Service Agents of my friend and fellow Greenpeace photographer, Fernando Perierra in 1985 with the bombing of the Rainbow Warrior in Auckland New Zealand. We are a sophisticated group of scientists, scholars and high level activists who are immune to the typical violence-inducing playbook that the FBI uses for animal rights activists and other eco-activist groups. We are not about to embrace violent acts in any way shape or form and would ID & expel any such infiltrator in a heartbeat. We are not immune to sophisticated infiltration schemes described in DRG’s latest book Cognitive Infiltration. If these forces would want to destroy us they would have to employ a much more studied approach. And I believe they have.

    Some of the bloggers mentioned here exhibit the tell tale signs of infiltration. It’s like they’re using the same playbook.” John Parulis

    I found the comment on WTCdemolition, here

    Clearly this is an ongoing campaign to rid the country of legitimate Truth activists. It’s organized and well thought out, like John says.

  3. Those people actually cite Ray McGovern working for the CIA “for 27 years”, as some absurd credential of his to make him a “hero”! That podcast was painful to listen to. I can not believe I was hearing shit like the controlled demolition of WTC buildings is not a talking point!!!!??????? What a bunch of assholes!

  4. along the same lines they mention that they were “fooled” by the various fake truthers like Morgan Reynolds, because, hell, he was a member of the Bush administration, so how could you not trust him…

    I hear this same kind of little blurp of wisdom from fakes all the time, either they let it slip or they do it intentionally

  5. “The fake Truth movement (Truth Action, 9/11 Blogger, 9/11 Truth News, Journal of 9/11 Studies, Pump it out, Citizens Investigation Team, Jim Hoffman, and conservative BYU puppet Steven Jones, Jon Gold, Cosmos, John Albanese, Victoria Ashley, Erik Larson, Frank Legge, KDUB, Bill Hicks, John Bursill, Dwain Deets, and Gregg Roberts…”

    I’m just curious.

    When/where/how have Steven Jones or Jim Hoffman ever attacked DRG?

    All I remember hearing from Dr. Jones in particular was advocation of Dr. Griffin, as well as direct quotes of DRG’s work that he said were “important points of logic” and “good science”.

  6. thanks much for this, scott. it’s important to document and keep track of what’s going on at all sunstein central stations. seems the agents are working overtime going into the tenth anniversary of 9/11, so we need to keep up and react appropriately.

    re: your suggested course of action of:
    “Whenever they comment or open their mouths in the future we should make it very clear that we know exactly what they are. Eventually, if we do not let them off the hook, if they are contractors, then their clients will see how ineffective they are and cancel their contracts… and they go away. At least, these exposed incarnations will. Surely they will simply dial-up yet another persona and try again, or they will try other means. But first we have to say that we can’t let them off the hook. They have completely exposed themselves as official story believers and contractors working to undermine our efforts. We have to answer every post they leave with links to Cass Sunstein articles or HBGary articles… just let them know we don’t need them anymore.”

    i basically did this on 911blogger right before the DRG hit-piece was posted, and i got banned as a result. thus i wasn’t around to offer my rebuttal when they went after DRG, as you and i discussed here
    http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2011/02/02/wikileaks%e2%84%a2-goes-lihop-and-controlled-opposition-prison-planet-eats-it-up/#comments

    so, as an alternative to your suggested course of action, i would suggest this: if you don’t want to burn your bridges but still want to call out the sunstein agents, it may be better to reply the way graeme macqueen and kevin ryan did, vs the way that got john parulis bounced, for all of which see http://www.wtcdemolition.com/blog/node/3107

    also, in that thread of yours cited above, you (a) suggested to me that i keep coming here to your site (which i have been doing and really enjoying), and (b) offered other site suggestions as well, including wtcdemolition.com (which i also have been digging). this was excellent advice, and imo, should be considered an option for those who either have had it with sites like 911blogger and don’t want to go there anymore, or who want to still go and be able to comment without getting bounced.

    my two cents,
    –d

  7. there is not a single well known “truther” out there who isn’t bought and paid for…period. Even the ones crapping gold nuggets eventually go south… Steven Jones is an excellent example of that.

    But none of the “characters” in the play matter here – 9/11 was a military/media job – they showed us false images that day. Period. The media networks were complicit and broadcasted military created images of inserted planes on a video screen.

    When we get too close they love to bring up the “victims”… The victims of 9/11 ? I suggest looking into that…

    The entire operation was a scam from start to finish… years ago it was hijackers or remote controlled planes? then it was conventional demo or space beams? They like to keep us chasing our tails. That’s the purpose…endless questioning and no answers.

    None of it matters – the media was complicit (still is complicit) They ARE part of the establishment that conceived this. They were the “distribution” piece of the scam.

    In terms of who to trust? Nobody. The future of this is further scapegoating and name calling from bloggers, forum comments, ad nausem… it’s an endless rabbit hole.

    9/11 “truth” or better: “realizing we’re lied to daily on a massive scale about ‘world events’” is really the best lesson and growth one can get from all this —form new friendships with those also aware — and use your new grown antenna to protect yourself and your family — ie: economics, health, etc.

    Realize THEY have a helluva new 21st century state of the art “Plato’s Cave” and they are using it 24/7 on us. It allows them to keep leading us along while the sleeping masses out there all think the choices and changes made are “necessary” and “unavoidable”… We know better… enjoy airport security much? What a joke.

    The biggest lesson is to: Stop being Afraid. All the headlines of war, unrest, et al — are the work of fiction from the powers that be…

    look at Egypt? what exactly is it? The complicit mainstream media from the 911 operation show it to you endlessly like they did a “plane” going into the WTC…Now they say it’s speading everywhere…even Wisconsin…hmmm

    Keep those antenna tuned people…

    Life is incredible, it’s beautiful – so beware the fear mongers who try to scare us and peddle their wares…

  8. ahey2012, you are doing drugs or something?

    People saw those planes hit the towers… people have videos of the planes…. not just the media….
    no plane hit building 7, but it went down anyway… like maybe a plane missed its mark that day but the demolition worked just fine.

    The protesting is real in WI. It is real in the Middle East.
    Maybe pretending this is not real, helps you survive.. sorry you feel so afraid… it is worrisome and scary.

  9. Jan, great beginning to your post.

    Yeah, I’m on caffeine like the rest of us. But I stopped drinking coffee and go with nice earl grey tea now.

    You’ve commented on my other post as Wily and I go back and forth – but again I will emphasize:

    the discussion is about footage broadcasted by the MSM of doctored videos depicting a plane impacting the towers. Period.

    What happened in New York has NOTHING to do with that argument.

    here’s an analogy:

    A girl with brown hair jumps over a fence. 20 people are on site and see it happen “real time”.

    At night on the news you see a girl with brown hair jump over a fence.

    Now, to keep things simple – in our analogy here, these 2 examples are supposed to depict the SAME event. okay?

    So now a bunch of people study the video and say “hey, this ain’t no girl with brown hair really jumpin’ over no fence! It’s phony, it’s been green screened, and it’s not even a real girl, it’s a CG character!” , and the fence has been added to the footage too! Why heck, this footage looks fake!”

    Thus, the consensus here then becomes: The TV footage aired of the girl with brown hair jumping over the fence is faked/doctored/manipulated, etc

    Do you understand that seizing on that argument would have ABSOLUTELY no bearing on the witnesses who saw a girl with brown hair jump over a fence in real time at the site of the event?

    That’s the argument about no planes in a nutshell going on here. And the only rebuttals, keeping with our analogy have been:

    I was there, I saw it.
    It was a real girl with brown hair, I saw it.
    I took a picture of a girl with brown hair jumping a fence…etc.. etc… etc…

    See the difference in the logic of the argument ?

    It’s not intellectually honest to argue the latter… nobody will debate the merits of the proof that the footage is doctored of the plane impacts into the towers.

    NBC plain as day was caught red handed showing a plane diving down and hitting the towers during an evening broadcast – but in an earlier broadcast – live that day- it wasn’t there. Debunking that and the other laundry list of vids that September Clues or any other video or youtube channel has organized together is the task at hand.

    It’s not just an inside job… it’s a media job… and that’s what all the truth leaders and bloggers out there with any kind of following refuse to look into – instead – we get ad hominem attacks and redirecting the argument…. or in this case, thread.

  10. I’m right in the middle of the wolf’s den … Hopefully I’ll be able to write a book someday …..

  11. Hi Scott. I just read your critique of the podcast of which I was invited to speak on. Your review of the podcast was disingenuous at best.
    No one on that show claimed that DRG is a disinfo agent, or simply in it to make money. Those are your words.
    I think you’ve fallen into the WTCD attitude that everyone who, however much they THINK themselve a part of a movement, are actually somehow “fake” if they dont subscribe to the same ideas that you do. This is a fairly divisive attitude to keep, and surely not a proven way to get people to help you out, or join your cause. You employ ad hominem attacks and redirection in the same breath that you deride such behavior. This is not a means to progress.

    I used to support you, Scott. You’ve made some very eloquent and salient points in the past, and should be commended for that. But your recent swing toward paranoid extremism is a tired old ploy used by many now discredited ‘researchers’ and activists.

    I hope that you are well, and that you come around to a saner viewpoint on those you disagree with, and realize that most people in the 9/11 truth movement are no more fake than you or I. Most of us are sincere, hard working people who want to see the truth come to light, whatever it may be.

  12. “I think you’ve fallen into the WTCD attitude that everyone who, however much they THINK themselve a part of a movement, are actually somehow “fake” if they dont subscribe to the same ideas that you do.”

    actually, no. I disagree with many regular visitors here quite often, and they aren’t “fake”

  13. “No one on that show claimed that DRG is a disinfo agent, or simply in it to make money. Those are your words.”

    actually uh no, these are your words from the recording… (or one of the others)

    “There’s a whole conspiracy industry out there and a lot of people just want to make money… you know, David Ray Griffin, he does sell books. He’s written 14 of them. And he does profit from this…. if he is actually selling lies instead of the truth, then I don’t care what his name is”

    what do you call that?

  14. “This is a fairly divisive attitude to keep, and surely not a proven way to get people to help you out, or join your cause.”

    Divisive attitude?

    You have the gall to say that after taking part in an attempt to marginalize David Ray Griffin while he is sick? After the YEARS of invaluable research he has contributed to this cause? You stab him in the back with the likes of Albanese and Jon Gold and you come here to say I have a “divisive attitude”?

    you should be ashamed of yourself. you were better than this

  15. “Most of us are sincere, hard working people who want to see the truth come to light, whatever it may be.”

    Most of them are, you’re damn right on that. And most of them did NOT appreciate Larson’s recent, flawed attack on DRG’s work, as is evidenced by the hundreds of comments on that thread at Blogger and the majority of them which support DRG’s work.

    Also, take a look at Blogger’s recent page view numbers especially since that attack piece…

    what do you see?

    That’s right. Those good well-meaning Truth advocates are flocking out of Blogger because of attacks like these.

    You need to wake up if you are still legit. Look around. Are the people around you really what you want to be like?

    there is a lesson to be learned here, by you… time to pick a side.

  16. JD

    I’d read that book. you should write one. you have dealt with a lot of people in the Truth movement, more than I have. I only “see” them when they come here to tell me I am an agent

  17. Im not ashamed in the least.
    With all of the gall I can muster, Im saying his continued publishing of baseless theories as fact should be criticized and relegated to the rubbish bin of 9/11 research. I’ve been saying this long before he became ill, I’ll continue to say it after he recovers, and I’ll say it after his eventual death. Fake phone calls is bullshit and you know it.

    I credit DRG with helping to wake me up to the many inconsistencies and lies of the official story. I think he is a brilliant man, and I continue to hope for his recovery.
    Since I honestly promoted the work of DRG in the past, have contributed money to him and campaigns that he’s supported, I feel like I’ve at least got a say in terms of critiquing his work.

    Are you saying he is above criticism? Ive seen many a truther say horrible things about Howard Zinn before and after he became ill, and even after he died. People on this very page have no problem saying mean or divisive things about Ray Mcgovern, and he’s one of our sanest allies in this fight.

    But you know, maybe you’re right, I shouldn’t be able to say how I feel about someone that represents me.

  18. Hey Nick…

    notice how many upvotes Jon got for calling this site a “cult”? (I’ll give you a hint before he runs over and starts asking for them)… the word starts with “z” and ends with “ero”… what does that tell you?

    and by the way, the more you use buzz words like “paranoid extremism” and “saner viewpoint” the more I wonder about you. you might want to make a note. it doesn’t mean someone is crazy because they disagree with you. Funny how the tribe over there at Blogger seems to get more and more like the trolls we used to have to deal with during the Bush years, ain’t it?

  19. Ok, I’ll try not to use any buzzwords. I’ll make a note; someone is not necessarily crazy because I disagree with them.

    You make a note too. Someone is not necessarily a “fake truther” for publicly disagreeing with DRG.

    Take care, Scott. I dont mean to derail your thread.

  20. I’m not talking about disagreeing with him, and you know that…

    read what I wrote…

    I am talking about this shit, which is why I wrote it

    ” “There were certain people that I thought, it was inconceivable to me that there would be people out there that didn’t have the best intentions at heart…”

    “Some of these members want 9/11 Truth to be about one thing, controlled demolition, which may or may not be true… or the faked cell phone calls… those people put us in the same category as the birther movement“

    “There’s a whole conspiracy industry out there and a lot of people just want to make money… you know, David Ray Griffin, he does sell books. He’s written 14 of them. And he does profit from this…. if he is actually selling lies instead of the truth, then I don’t care what his name is” fake Truther roundtable

    That’s not disagreeing with DRG, that is a personal attack and you damn well know the difference.

  21. I sounds like your issue is with Jon Gold and John Albanese, not me. I’ll let them defend their own words.

    “Fake truther” roundtable. Is that a buzzword around here? What is the definition, if you don’t mind me asking?

    In any case, I’m in complete agreement with the first 2 passages you quoted. Does that make me fake?

  22. No it doesn’t. But the fact that you pretend that I am angry about someone disagreeing with DRG when in fact you can clearly see it is the WAY it was handled that makes me mad, that tends to make me wonder, yes.

    also, tossing around words like “extremist” as you just did makes me a little nervous as well. I heard a lot of talk like that about Truth advocates in the past. did not expect to hear them… from us.

    you understand that?

  23. Hey JD, good to hear you are writing a book…. I would read it too…. get to work… :0

    and Ahey, have I got to tell you what your problem is? darn it… You sound like a hyped up first year college student who is just dying to get people into a mind-boggling discussion… your problem is that you haven’t read enough and been in school long enough to conceive a real mind twister of a discussion… come back in about two years… and then try. :)

  24. “I sounds like your issue is with Jon Gold and John Albanese, not me. I’ll let them defend their own words”

    yes… they are the majority of my problem. You see, I can read too you know, and I read all 400 of those comments on the thread at Blogger (well, that is, before they started erasing some of them)… I can tell the difference in tone from, say, your comments, and say John’s and Jon’s. Jon Jon… hee hee…

    so yeah, I was surprised you took part in that and I was more surprised when you could clearly feel how it was going, that you didn’t take a stand for David like MANY leading Truth advocates have been doing… like John P. for example and Kevin Ryan….

    he may be wrong about the phone calls, I don’t PRETEND to know enough about it to get in the middle of it, but I KNOW that he is not deliberately trying to undermine this movement…

    and so do you.

    and you should have said something on that show…

    and THAT is why you should be ashamed, not because you disagree, but you now what they were doing was wrong.

  25. I see where you’re coming from, but I read it as you essentially calling everyone at 9/11 blogger ‘fake truthers’. It struck me as paranoid and extreme.

    I would suggest calling in to Jeffs show the next time it airs and explaining your position. Were not going to get anywhere if we just keep pointing fingers at each other.

    Anyway, I think I’ve made my position clear. If I understand yours, its that this editorial should not have been published until DRG was feeling healthy again. Maybe I agree with that, but to me the fake phone call theory is something that needed a healthy criticism from within the movement. Perhaps the timing and methodology was poor.

    The fact of the matter remains: Someones previous work, health, etc should have no bearing on whether people can critique and criticize a bum argument.

    If Jesus himself came down from the heavens and declared that the WTC was taken down by lasers, I’d have to call him on it! And if they nailed him to the cross again, I’d be like, “I understand you’re not feeling too hot at the moment, J, but for real? Lasers? Get your shit together, man. A lot of Bibles get sold in your name, and John the Baptist doesnt want anything to do with your nutty theory. Now half the disciples wont stop arguing with the other half. This shits got to stop!”

    I dunno. A flawed metaphor. But I hope you get my point. I know DRG is on my side. I want the same thing as he does, and the same thing you do. I just think the way he is going about it at this point is detrimental to our progress.

  26. “Fake truther” roundtable. Is that a buzzword around here? What is the definition, if you don’t mind me asking? “

    I don’t mind at all, but I think I made it clear in my article…

    “The contractors (who claim to already have vast successful experience in this field) layout a plan to infiltrate certain groups, use other sacrificial fakes (think Judy Woods, Morgan Reynolds, CIT) in order to garner their primary fakes (Jones, Roberts, Hoffman,Legge) leadership status in the movement. Then they can skillfully enact what Cass Sunstein was talking about when he called for “introducing beneficial cognitive diversity” which in this case translates to bringing the members of the movement, step by step, back into line with the official story of 9/11 or using flawed studies such as the BYU paid for “nanothermite” paper or CIT’s “flyover” research to discredit it.” Scott Creighton

    Then John P. made it perfectly clear as well before this comment was erased on Blogger…

    ” Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 3:20 PM

    Dear Friends. This post is why I was just kicked off of 911blogger. 911blogger, in my opinion, has been infiltrated by a sophisticted team and misguided by its headstrong and reactionary leadership.

    I continue to work in the Truth Movement regardless. While 911blogger is an important mouthpiece for the movement it isn’t the sole source of information on 9/11. Now it appears to be a corrupted source at that.

    John Parulis”

    “Roundtable” came from the self-conscience title of the audio recording or pod-cast…

    now, the question isn’t what “did” we do? cus we can’t live in the past… it’s unproductive… the question is what “do” we do?

    Frankly, you need to have the objective perspective to look back at that discussion and understand that though YOU may have gone in with one intention, it is clear that the others had a much different one.

    did you accuse DRG of intentionally misleading the Truth movement for money? I don’t think so, but someone sure as hell did.

    Now if that is not your position, I would suggest you think about how to set the record straight from your end. Disagreeing with him is one thing… accusing him is something else entirely.

    do you understand now?

  27. “I see where you’re coming from, but I read it as you essentially calling everyone at 9/11 blogger ‘fake truthers’. It struck me as paranoid and extreme.”

    WRONG. You are putting words in my mouth, again.

    what did I say 12 comments ago?

    I said that MOST Truth advocates are decent well meaning people and that Gold’s comment calling me a “cult” got ZERO upvotes at Blogger

    i ALSO said that MOST comments at Blogger on that thread were not supportive of the attacks on DRG

    stop trying to argue the points you WISH I had said. By definition, that is called SPIN.

  28. “…but to me the fake phone call theory is something that needed a healthy criticism from within the movement. “

    healthy criticism is fine. Insinuating that DRG has bad intentions toward the movement and that he is only in this for the money is NOT. Period.

    that is what I have said from the beginning, that is what I am saying now.

  29. One by one the very people you are aligned with right now, specifically, JonJohn, have targeted and attacked the strongest points of question that the Truth movement has developed over the years.

    CD, which everyone qualifies now as “maybe it happened maybe it didn’t”, Building 7 before the NIST report came out… piece by piece… undermining this movement. And now… David Ray Griffin.

    The intention, Nick, is to bring people back to the original official conspiracy theory of 9/11. That is called “introducing beneficial cognitive diversity” and it is obvious at this point. Which is the point, John P. makes as well.

    You say you can’t see that happening with certain leaders at Blogger? you seem to be a bit behind the curve. got a little catching up to do, don’t you?

  30. I was just saying how I originally perceived your initial blog post, in regards to what you said about buzzwords.

    I agree with your position on intentionality. Ive never said that DRG was doing this purposefully for money. I understand Jon’s point about CD. Most of the movement thinks this is the strongest point in the movement. Im not convinced that it is, but I still believe Jon is on the same side as I am. I wouldnt call him a fake truther anymore than Id call Richard Gage a fake truther. I find that term repulsive, actually. It denotes the same intentionality that you are so opposed to.

    For the record, I do not think that these people that I’ve “aligned myself with” are calling DRG a paid disinfo agent. I think they are disappointed that he publishes things like fake phone theory in his books, and are responding in their own way.

    We need to keep our eyes on the prize, but Im done commenting here for now. I have to get back to work. I hope I’ve made myself clear on my position, and I hope that we can build bridges to people we disagree with and move forward. I also hope that the movement matures and disavows silly theories like ‘flyover’ and ‘fake phone calls’.

    We can hope. Ok, for real this time; take care Scott.

  31. if you find the term so repulsive, then why did you not call them out for insinuating that DRG has “bad intentions” toward the movement? by definition, that is what a fake “truther” is.

    and you are correct. I use that term knowing full well what it means. and when I level it at someone, it is not through innuendo and back-handed accusations… I say what I mean.

    You sound to me like you honestly do not intend to suggest that DRG has dishonest intentions in the movement.

    AS for fake phone calls, as Kevin Ryan pointed out, Erik’s article is deeply flawed and probably even more so than DRG’s was. Cell phone calls from that height at that time is not a given and Erik’s entire premise is that someone “might” have put boasters on the flight so that the victims calls could go through. To me that’s weak. Very weak.

    so you believe what you want. The jury is still out here. All the amen chorus in the world doesn’t make Erik’s paper worth didily squat.

    thanks for stopping by. don’t be a stranger. I got some stuff on nanothermite you would just love… :)

  32. Now, Nick… lets take a look at what is happening right now on Blogger.

    There is a guy, Jeff “Shure” Hill who called up the technician on the Ventura show that dealt with voice morphing technologies. (I exposed Ventura back long ago when Blogger was still singing his praise by the way)

    Jeff Hill’s site used to feature “no plane’ theories pretty prominently, right?

    Now Jeff keeps leading the guy to say that voice morphing was impossible, but lo-and-behold, the guy actually tells Jeff that “Yes. I could do a morph that fools someone’s own mother” But then he goes on to say that he couldn’t do it 30 times in such a short period of time.

    Now, the issue of manpower aside, the technician claims that he does not believe the government attacked us on 9/11 therefore, it is outrageous to think that it was done.

    And this is somehow a victory on Blogger?

    The man said he could fool your mother with voice morphing and everyone is claiming that this proves Griffin wrong?

    How the hell does that make sense?

    But, as people like Aidan Monaghan come out and say this doesn’t prove Griffin is wrong, and the amen chorus downvote him immediately.

    Your friends, Albanese and Gold, in turn, go after each and every Blogger who supports that position, one after the other…

    … as if they are on a mission.

    http://911blogger.com/news/2011-02-23/jesse-ventura-s-fake-phone-calls-claim-debunked#comments

    Are you telling me you can’t see that, Nick? It’s pretty fucking obvious.

  33. You need to wake up Nick… look at that thread… Albanese and Gold struggling to downvote anyone who dares question their dictates… want some current examples? These are long standing Truth advocates and commenters at Blogger… people aren’t buying this poorly written bullshit from Erik and Jeff anymore.

    “Lately, there seems to be a curious rush to judgment by certain “truthers” to accept several different aspects of the official 9/11 story without conclusive evidence. An earlier example would be the implication that AA 77 FDR data is authentic, despite the fact that no inventory serial control numbers are attributed to the FDR, that there is a several hour time stamp discrepancy concerning the data and its recovery and that this data depicts pilot control of AA 77 – the pilot who by most accounts was incapable.” Aidan Monaghan

    “I too have noticed that lately certain truthers are embracing the TOCT more & more. Maybe they’re rachetting up the infiltration in anticipation of the tenth anniversary.” waitew

    “I used actual research, as you wished for, and agree with waitew. See above. It is virtually impossible to use a cell phone at altitudes claimed.
    Whereas, it IS demonstrably clear that voice morphing technology existed and could have been used. ” EyeOnTheBall

    http://911blogger.com/news/2011-02-23/jesse-ventura-s-fake-phone-calls-claim-debunked#comments

  34. “Aidan is correct.
    It has become very noticable that there has been a recent trend at 911Blogger. This is very observable.
    I have observed valid questions get overwhelmed with down votes.
    I have observed a “Vote Club Effect” where prejudice is played for or against certain people.” TomT

    http://911blogger.com/news/2011-02-23/jesse-ventura-s-fake-phone-calls-claim-debunked#comment-246684

  35. Yes willy pretty much everyone since the beginning … Out of all of them you and Jan are still my favorites ….

  36. Ahhhhhhh…. JD, thanks :)

  37. this might actually be a good time for you JD. Seems like there is serious dissension in the ranks at Blogger and you seem to be liked by most of the people you dealt with during your run. Leaders of movements don’t choose themselves, and really, the people don’t. The times choose them, happenstance. Me, I am rarely liked in the present, but eventually people seem to come around to what tried to tell them in the past. Something about my caustic personality I guess. Something about my desire to expose icons in real time makes me unpalatable till those icons expose themselves.

  38. great thread, willy!

    re your: “I am rarely liked in the present, but eventually people seem to come around to what tried to tell them in the past.”
    that’s the price you pay for being ahead of your time, but i’m sure you realized that before i did. keep up the great work!

  39. thanks dennis. I’m certainly not always right. Just yesterday Kenny had to give me a little nudge so that I would do a little more research into the nuclear material and biological weapons aspect of the Pakistani CIA guy story. Turns out, he was correct. tracing that info back turns into a murky brick wall, started by Sorcha Faal… if that tells you anything.

    So I don’t claim to be right more often than anyone else, it’s just, when I see something from the self-imposed “leaders” of this movement that I know is fishy, I will delve into it, research it, and publish my findings, no matter how many people call me disinfo for doing so.

    I had someone I liked a lot back in the day ask me once if I would rather be right or have friends… she’s gone, and I move on.

    guess that answered her question.

    now a days, she too sees Obama for what he really is. But the water is already under that bridge.

  40. i am totally in the dark on the Pakistani CIA guy story and never heard of Sorcha Faal. i have no idea how you not only keep up on all this, but write about it too!

    re: “rather be right or have friends.” not necessarily mutually exclusive. since she now sees Obama for what he really is, maybe give her a call? truth and reconciliation, and all that.

  41. she sees him for what he is, but if I try to rekindle our friendship, she will be reminded of what she was. I still like her too much for that.

  42. Hey Nick:

    Here are some more reasonable comments from Blogger activists being downvoted by the OCT Posse led by the two guys you did that “roundtable” with, JonJohn… starting to see a pattern yet?

    “The same folks keep pushing a limited discussion agenda on blogger and have made many demeaning comments. Under the guise that the truth must be fully substantiated before we can have respect as a movement the discussions have become curt and limited. I have pointed out many times that people are being turned off this site and the movement indirectly. The “vote club” and the MODs are in denial of this trend.” peacefulwarrior

    “peacefulwarrior,
    Your comment statement is valid. Yet, you quickly started receiving downvotes.

    This “downvote fury” was absent from 911blogger a year or so ago.” TomT

    http://911blogger.com/news/2011-02-23/jesse-ventura-s-fake-phone-calls-claim-debunked#comment-246713

  43. Nick:

    Now to be fair, I am going to put up some selected quotes from some of the people you are aligned with. First, these from John Albanese,…

    John Albanese –

    “speculative science fiction-based theories”
    beware those who accuse certain “truthers” of accepting the “official story”
    “my definition of evil is anything that distorts or obscures the TRUTH” (his TRUTH.. the “truth” of the OCT)
    “you clearly missed your calling as a scientist”
    “i have come to the conclusion that crapper-fakery has been employed on all commercial flights”
    false claim: cellphone calls were impossible
    “because activists like you would rather chase little green men?”
    “other than showing up here to defend little green men theories like voice morphing technology”
    give us a reason why anyone should respect what YOU do!!!”
    “some anonymous message board persona who find reason to attack the undermine people’s efforts while simultaneously defending little green men theories
    “maybe the movement needs more professional wrestlers?”
    “it is MY opinion that he is cheapening the victim’s family’s calls for justice by focusing on NONSENSE theories”
    “missing planes at the Pentagon and cellphone fakery is rubbish”
    “and discrediting the efforts of those – like the victim’s families – and whistle blowers like Sibel Edmonds and Coleen Rowley – ”
    “the truth of the matter is that calls are possible – given certain parameters
    “cellphones DO work on planes – under certain circumstances
    “I view this as the definitive last word on DRG’s cellphone fakery fakery….Taken in conjunction with many of the ‘facts’ DRG presents in his last book ‘Cognitive Infiltration’ – like ‘the hijackers are still alive’ and ‘no plane at the Pentagon’ we are forced to wonder about the intentionality behind these glaringly careless assertions – from someone who is almost painfully verbose… it just doesn’t compute for me – and leads me in the direction of intentionality.”
    “By my count he has written 14 books on the subject of 9/11. There are for-profit endeavors. I understand that DRG owns beach front property in southern california in a very wealthy community. ”
    “… it is NOT beyond the pale to question the motivation of someone who is profiting from 9/11 related books
    “in MY opinion – and i admit it is merely an opinion – it STINKS of intentional disruption in the absolute ABSURD premise it seeks to propagate. it almost seems designed to POISON the well by INSULTING the victim’s families
    “show us proof that the hijackers are still alive that is not the product of confusion over names and identities early on in the story”
    “al jazeera and journalists all over the world not sympathetic to the USA would love to know”
    “He sells books. He profits from these books. If those books sell ideas that ARE NOT THE TRUTH – and is seen to be manipulating the data – it is unforgivable and many of us here demand that he cease and desist profiting from NON-TRUTH.”

  44. The other day I took a look at the 911 Blogger. It was my first(and my last) visit.Too much bashing. lots of fancy(read elitist) techtalk. Links to photo collections showing a Boeing 747 coming in very low for a landing at St Martin Airport. Caption: How come this plane didn’t blow the cars off the road?. Wow! That’s easy,747 @ 100 kph doesn’t make as much turbulence as a 757 @ 430 kph. I believe the photo tries to con people into believing the Pentagon plane really hit the building even though the grass in front of the crash sight looks unscathed. Onslaught of derision,innuendo,misleading speculation regarding DRG. Bottom line for me: I’ll take DRG’s work and words vs them and Ted & Barb”s alleged conversations. Oh, I forgot , the FBI said there were 4 calls from Barb to Ted so even though no other calls made from AAL77 got through and Barb’s call lasted zero mins- and everyone was herded to the back of the plane and Barb (the only passenger who had the balls to call from the toliet had to call collect? from a seat back air phone in the toilet?) took her chances and heroically fought her way past those boxcutter wielding,dark skinned, red bandana wearing hijackers and somehow found a seatback air phone (that Erik says must have been operable because he did the research) made the call, asked Ted what she should tell the pilot to do. Of course , Ted was wrong when he said Barb used a cell phone and Ted forgot to say that Barb told him some of the bad guys had a gun when he described his version of the airphone/cell.Gotta believe the SG of the USA. The phone operator called him a sergeant(she was reading from a prepared script and thought SG was the abbreviation of sergeant instead of Solicitor General of the USA). There was no record of the collect call at the DOJ. But the FBI verified it so it must be true (just like they correctly identified all 19 of the perpetrators) Faked phone calls? How many people flew on the same 4 planes involved in the 911 attack (from Jan to Aug)? How many flight crews? If the calls are supposed to real , shouldn’t there be a deluge of support for “real” phone calls? Has any of the heavy hitters at 911 blogger cited a poll of these hundreds, maybe thousands of people ? How about records for all the calls that must have been made 8 months before 911 ? Cell phone or air phone. There are records of them someplace. The burden of proof should not be on DRG. Voice morphing has been and is going on all the time since the 90′s. DRG takes things out of context? I don’t think so. Is he possibly wrong? I don’t think so. Did Ted talk to Barb ? I don’t think so. Guns on all of the 911 flights ? Sure, but the guns weren’t found because the crashed planes either vaporized or disintegrated while hijackers’ bandanas,passports and DLs survived. They’ve even found DNA evidence from a hijacker’s dis- carded plastic water bottle that survived the burning infernos of the WTC at ground zero. ..???

  45. Almost forgot: In the photo album , one ot the forum posted is a link to a photo from the autopsy room at Dover. Bodies on the tables being identified by the military. Fingerprints? DNA? A very bogus scene to say the least. I think if you looked close enough you could see one of them must have been a hijacker. Where do you get DNA or fingerprints to verify hijackers? I’m saying it can’t be done, just curious. Maybe John,Jon or Chris or Sails might know. Why hasn’t the absence of US Navy, US Marine and Army Radar and PAVPAWS been questioned? Pentagon Air/Missle Defense? They must be in the loop to protect our nation.Navy Aircraft Carrier Geo. Wash. Planes capable of intercepting hijacked planes. MCAS Cherry Point NC has jet fighters. Seems those resources can fill in for any emergencies NORAD is too stretched out to handle ((Too many games))? No one should wonder when countries say no thanks to US Missile Defense Systems. They couldn’t defend us from a handful of terrorists. I believe 911 was an inside job. No Osama, no Islamic, or al Qaeda could do 9/11 without help from domestic traitors. It begins to look like 911 Blogger is the defense system protecting those traitors.

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