by Scott Creighton (reposted from Nov. 28, 2008)
Barack Obama is never going to prosecute George W. Bush for authorizing the use of torture, or so says Senate Judiciary Chairman Patrick Leahy and Robert Litt, a former top Clinton administration Justice Department prosecutor.
“These things are not going to happen,” said Leahy, D-Vt.
“Both for policy and political reasons, it would not be beneficial to spend a lot of time hauling people up before Congress or before grand juries and going over what went on…To as great of an extent we can say, the last eight years are over, now we can move forward — that would be beneficial both to the country and the president, politically.” Robert Litt
Torture? Water boarding? These are the crimes of the Bush era you want investigated? That’s like wanting to prosecute Al Capone for misdemeanor assault.
Water boarding? The act of “pretending” to kill someone? Make them think they are going to die?
Well, if the new administration is hesitant about prosecuting that, how about say…, blowing the legs off children for money? How’s that one grab you? Think that’s “prosecutable” these days, or is this country just completely devoid of conscious, morality, and the rule of law?
How about targeting civilian infrastructure to create civil and social collapse on an epic scale? How about killing innocent men, women, and children and doing so with malice of forethought? How about causing untold levels of human suffering the likes of which can only be compared to the worst atrocities in history, all for the economic gain of certain multinational corporations?
How about “Shock and Awe“? How about that, Barack?
Do you think the human condition would be better served if we prosecute these criminals for that? Or would that not be “politically beneficial” to you?
What do you say? Is the Bush family “too big to fail” or are they just too big for you?
Shock and Awe. Why isn’t anyone talking about that? How about the act of actually killing 100,000 Iraqi civilians in a manner that, by its own definition, is designed to terrorize the population of a nation and doing it for reasons that Bush and his staff just… made-up?
Just made them all up, right out of thin air. You think maybe that would be a prosecution worth spending a little political capital on?
“The Doctrine of Rapid dominance (Shock and Awe) is defined by its authors, Harlan K. Ullman and James P. Wade, as attempting “to affect the will, perception, and understanding of the adversary to fit or respond to our strategic policy ends through imposing a regime of Shock and Awe.” Wiki.
George W. Bush didn’t invade Iraq by accident; they came into office with that one goal in mind. We know that now. We have testimony from people who were there that Bush tasked them with finding a reason to invade Iraq since day 1(Jan. 2001).
“From the very beginning, there was a conviction that Saddam Hussein was a bad person and that he needed to go.” Saddam’s removal is the first item of Bush’s inaugural national security meeting. Then-Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill later tells journalist Ron Suskind, “It was all about finding a way to do it. That was the tone of it. The president saying, ‘Go find me a way to do this.” Mother Jones
We also know that Colin Powell lied to the UN, that Bush lied in the State of the Union Address, and that he and his staff lied to us 935 separate times to get us to kill innocent Iraqi civilians (that’s men, women, and children by the way).
We know that President Bush went on national television and talked about his new battle strategy called “shock and awe” that was unlike anything we have done before. Bush said it. Right on television. He said they were using this plan which means, he is responsible for the plan. We haven’t got to ask “what did he know?” We haven’t got to trace it back to him; he said it on television. It’s his plan.
The plan, “Shock and Awe” says, right in the little booklet, that it is designed to inflict massive collateral damage that will “shock” the citizens of the enemy nation into submission.
“Wolf Blitzer reported that in his 30 years of experience, he had never seen anything on the scale of Friday’s attack on the Iraqi capital.” CNN
There is no doubt that this plan, at its core, is terrorism as defined by the international rule of law.
In fact, according to the Pentagon, they hit 0% of their targets in the first 50 bombing missions of the war in Iraq.
Let me ask you, what is a “target” based on when the reason to go to war in the first place is a lie?
Weapons of mass destruction? Yes, I guess they missed those, because there were none and they knew that going in. Terrorists? Yes, I guess they “missed” those as well, because at that point, there were none of those in Iraq either and they knew that then too.
“Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld held a news conference at about 1:40 p.m. EST. He announced that the air war had begun, and he listed some of the coalition objectives in Operation Iraqi Freedom. Those objectives included defending Americans against Iraq’s alleged weapons of mass destruction…He added that the allies would work to search for, capture, and drive out terrorists who had found safe harbor in Iraq…” CNN
So what, pray-tell, did they miss?
What did the most advanced targeting systems ever devised miss 100% of the time, in the first 50 bombing attacks (otherwise known as “Shock and Awe”)?
They missed… the lies. That’s what they missed. Because they weren’t there. There were no WMDs and “terrorists” hiding in Iraq, so of course they missed them.
What they hit were civilians, and the story about missing targets was just another lie.
They intended to hit civilian areas in order to create “Shock and Awe”; in order to terrorize the civilian population into submission for the OCCUPATION that was to follow. The following quote proves that since the very beginning of this illegal war, the department of defense had every intention for this “Shock and Awe” to have an effect on the population of Iraq, not just it’s leaders.
“Rumsfeld said that the strike had taken place “on a scale that indicates to Iraqis” that Saddam and his leadership were finished.” CNN
This is the crime that needs to be prosecuted.
“Shutting the country down would entail both the physical destruction of appropriate infrastructure and the shutdown and control of the flow of all vital information and associated commerce so rapidly as to achieve a level of national shock akin to the effect that dropping nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki had on the Japanese.” Wiki
Not whether or not we think we might be able to trace an authorization to use certain types of illegal (or not illegal) torture on a suspected terrorist all the way back up past Rumsfeld, Rice, and Cheney to the big man. Yeah sure, we might be able to do that, if they all turn against Bush or get religion real quick.
But I don’t see that happening. Especially when more and more democrats seem to be lining up to defend them for political reasons.
But the easiest prosecution is always the most obvious; Bush talked about using “Shock and Awe” before March of 2003, he told his staff to find a way to go after regime change in Iraq in Jan. 2001, and he proceeded to lie through his teeth over and over again to make that happen. Bush’s ”Shock and Awe” plan deliberately targeted civilians and critical infrastructure.
Bush is guilty of crimes against humanity and of waging an illegal War of Aggression against a sovereign nation for the purpose of gaining access to it’s natural resources.
Whether or not congress authorised it is meaningless because Bush orchestrated a campaign of manufactured information on which congress based it’s resolution to authorise the use of force. Therefore, the resolution of 2002 is based on fraudulent intelligence and is therefore invalid.
Whether or not Bush authorized the use of torture pales in comparison to the fact that they manufactured a war for the purposes of producing capital gains for certain companies. We can no longer afford the luxury of allowing ourselves to ignore this fact lest the next profit margin may depend on actions conducted closer to home. Much closer.
Regardless of the next target, we must decide whether or not we really stand for the things that we teach our children that we stand for. Are “freedom”, “justice”, and “humanity” just buzz-words in a marketing campaign like “Yes We Can”? Or do they mean something more.
If Barackand his team have decided not to “look backward” at the crimes committed in our name, I daresay that isn’t his choice to make. It’s ours. Kind of like Pelosi taking impeachment off the table; it’s a catastrophic over-reach of authority.
And I for one don’t equate justice with “political benefits”, at least not when it comes to greedy and corrupt administrations misusing our trust and killing kids for profit.
That kind of evil must never be ignored or forgotten, no matter what the political cost.
Filed under: Iraq, democracy, fake war on terror | Tagged: bush war crimes, Illegal Occupation of Iraq, Prosecute Bush
I AM ABSOLUTELY FUCKING FED UP, TOTALLY, WITH THESE ASSHOLES WE ELECT, TELLING US, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE ACTION ONE, AGAINST ANYONE IN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION, FOR THE CRIMES OF THE LAST EIGHT YEARS. IM JUST FED UP TO HERE WITH THEM TELLING US NO. WELL FUCK ME!!! GODAMM THEM ALL TO HELL!!!
IM GONNA GO AND START TALKING TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE IN EUROPE THROUGH THE RANT N RAVE LINK IN CRAIGSLIST. YOU ALL KNOW ABOUT CRAIGSLIST RIGHT?
THROUGH THAT VENUE, WE CAN DISCUSS THE PROSPECT OF SOLICITING THEIR ASSISTANCE, BY PUTTING PRESURE ON THEIR GOVERNMENTS, TO POSSIBLY BRING BUSH AND CHANEY ETC TO THE WORLD CRIMINAL COURT. I DON’T KNOW HOW SUCSESSFULL THAT CAN BE. BUT IM GETTIN GODDAMM SICK N TIRED OF JUST TALKIN AND DREAMING ABOUT THIS. THE ONE THING I DO REALLY WELL, IS STIR UP SHIT. I HAVE BEEN CALLED A SHIT STIRRER. SO THAT IS WHAT IM GONNA GO DO ON CRAIGSLIST IN EUROPE, ASIA, EVERYWHERE. I GOT THE TIME, AND THE MOTIVATION. IF WE GET PEOPLE OVER THERE TSLKIN AMONG THEMSELVES, MAYBE WE CAN GET SHIT STIRRED UP OVER THERE. CRAIGSLIST IS THE WAY. LETS ROLL
i got my first posting in rant and raves for Berlin Germany. what better place to start than with the people who knoe first hand about having trannical government run by a madman. the germans.
the title is ATTN: BERLINNERS AND THE WORLD
The only thing is, with the Germans, you can’t say nothing about Israel.
thats too touchy of a subject for them. so i made no mention at all of Israel.
THIS IS PULLED DIRECTLY FROM THE BERLIN GERMANY RANT AND RAVE ON CRAIGSLIST——————————————————————————
Reply to: pers-937514067@craigslist.org [?]
Date: 2008-11-29, 3:59AM CET
DEAR BERLINERS,
WE GOT US A SERIOUS PROBLEM OVER HERE IN THE USA, AND WE CAN’T GET IT SOLVED.
YOU ALL KNOW PRESIDENT BUSH, VICE PRESIDENT CHANEY, FORMER SEC OF DEFENSE RUMSFIELD, CONDI RICE, ETC, THE SIGNITARIES OF THE PNAC, THEIR ALL CRIMINALS, AND SHOULD BE BROUGHT UP ON CHARGES AND A CRIMINAL TRIAL HELD FOR THEM ALL.
9-11 WAS A LIE, THE IRAQI WAR IS A LIE, THE AFGHANISTAN CONFLICT IS A LIE, THE CONFLICT IN GEORGIA WAS NOT, REPEAT NOT STARTED BY THE SOVIETS. THAT CONFLICT WAS BEGUN BY THE PUPPET GOVERNMENT COMMANDED BY THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION. THE FINANCIAL MARKET COLAPSE IS DUE TO CORUPTION, AND CURRENTLY, BANKING INTERREST’S ARE STEALING THE VERY FINANCIAL LIFE BLOOD OUT OF THE USA! THE LIST GOES ON, AND ON.
THE INCOMMING ADMINISTRATION OF PRESIDENT ELECT OBAMA HAS INDICATED THAT THERE WILL BE NO CRIMINAL PROCEDURES WHAT SO EVER TAKEN AGAINST THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION FOR THE CRIMES OF THE LAST EIGHT YEARS. THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION IS AS CRIMINAL AS THE HITLER ADMINISTRATION WAS. THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE PNAC, (PROJECT FOR A NEW AMERICAN CENTURY) HAS HAD THE OBJECTIVE OF WORLD DOMINATION, AND THEFT OF THE NATURAL RECOURCES OF OTHER COUNTRIES. GREED, THEFT, WORLD DOMINATION IS THEIR OBJECTIVE. THE CONDUCT OF THIS GOVERNMENT YOU PEOPLE AND THE REST OF THE WORLD HAVE WITNESSED THE LAST EIGHT YEARS IS NOT REPRESENTITIVE OF THE AVERAGE AMERICAN DESIRE. WE DO NOT WANT TO DOMINATE THE WORLD, AND STEAL IT’S RECOURCES. THAT IS THE GODS TRUTH.
WE HAVE LOST COMPLETE CONTROL OF OUR GOVERNMENT AND THEY WILL ARREST ANY OF US IF WE BECOME TOO THREATNING TO THEM. DOES ANY OF THIS REMIND YOU OF ANYTHING?
IM TELLING YOU THE TRUTH. IT IS THE TRUTH.
THE INCOMMING OBAMA ADMINISTRATION APPEARS TO BE ESSENTIALLY MORE OF WHAT WE HAVE SEEN FOR EIGHT YEARS NOW. DON’T BE FOOLED. THE LARGE BANKING INTERRESTS, MILLITARY INDUSTRIAL CORPORATIONS, AND THE OIL COMPANIES ACTUALLY RULE THE UNITED STATES NOW, NOT THE PRESIDENT. THAT IS A FACT, REGRETIBLY.
WHAT WE NEED HERE IN THE UNITED STATES IS AN ALL OUT MASSIVE ARMED REVOLT AND THERE ARE ENOUGH ASSAULT RIFLE OWNERS TO EFFECTIVELY WAGE A SECSESSFULL ARMED REVOLUTION. WHY HASENT THIS OCCURED, YOU MAY ASK? I DON’T REALLY KNOW WHY THIS HAS NOT OCCURED. PRESENTLY, THERE IS A MASSIVE SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION SHORTAGE IN GOVERNMENT AND LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES. ASSAULT RIFLE OWNERS USUALLY POSSES APPROX 2000 (AVERAGE) RDS IN THEIR PERSONEL ENVENTORIES.
I SUPPOSE THE REASON FOR NO ARMED REVOLT IS BECAUSE AMERICANS ARE A HOPEFULL PEOPLE WHO HOLD DEARLY TO LAW N ORDER. BUT THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION ARE CRIMINALS.
WE NEED YOUR HELP. WE NEED TO GET MEMBERS OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION IN THE WORLD COURT OF LAW TO FACE ACCOUNTIBILLITY THAT THEY WILL NEVER FACE HERE IN THE USA.
WE NEED THE HELP OF THE ENTIRE WORLD. IT’S NEARLY TOO LATE. PLEASE COMRADS, HELP US RESTORE LAW N ORDER TO THE USA. WE CAN’T DO IT BY OURSELVES. JUST ME WRITTING THIS TO YOU MAKES ME AN ENEAMY COMBANTANT AND THEY COULD TAKE ME AWAY TO GUANTANAMO. THAT IS THE ABSOLUTE GODS TRUTH. WE ARE IN BIG TROUBLE HERE.
PLEASE HELP US.
SCOTT HUMPHREY
a.. Location: SPRINGFIELD ILLINOIS USA
b.. it’s NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
PostingID: 937514067
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Just got in from work and Willyloman has written a rousing posting that doen’t help my supper digest. I sit here mad and feeling out of sorts about Obama not even attempting to verbally punish Bush and his vampares… not going to do nothing… too much time in court hauling people …. ha…. as if that would interfere with ‘their’ agendas. and that poster with that silly looking girl grinning about not prosecuting Bush… man… is she for real?
Then Scott Humphrey sending an SOS to Germany … trying to get help in prosecuting Bush and company… calling himself a ’shit stirrer’….. BTW ‘conrad’ is a Russian term… I think… You should send that SOS to a German newspaper or a Russian paper…. Germans looking for a job or something cheap to buy can’t help us. What they going ot do? Buy tickets and fly here and demonstrate?
Oh… I hope neither of you get in to any trouble.
Whoknows…. Congress says they will not allow Bush to pardon himself or his criminal friends (Cheney, etc)… so maybe Congress has a plan….. after January maybe….
You guys been reading about the attacks in Mambai? (India)
The murders are linking Americans and Jewish victims together…. sounds like the begining of a ‘fix’ to me. The terrorist are Muslims. Shock and awe…… a mixing of words that sounds like a rousing for our trust of a war against ….. you got it… Iran and its neighbors.
What’s the matter SCOTT ALLEN … what’s with the cold shoulder I’ve been getting?? … I thought you missed me? … Not even so much as a “Hey … who’s the Babe holding the sign?” … Are you OK???
Dear Mr. Humphrey
Pelosi, Reid, and Dodd need to go to jail for their rolls in the current banking scandal. Carter and Clinton should be looked at as well as they removed the “Usury” laws and started forcing the banks on the poor-house-impaired-voters. Granted Bush selling our future was dumb but he was reaching over the isle trying to save face with the Democrats that had their butts in the wringer.
Obama can’t protest to much as he received only slightly less of the banks’ (Fannie & Sallie) contributions to the DNC then Dodd did. Dodd received the most as they broke the bank.
I am looking forward to New York and Los Angeles getting nuked by Iran for being unholy. You would think the liberal minded would support the war as their ideology most offends the terrorists. This makes liberals first on the hit list as the terrorists come to America.
Theres no cold shoulder JD. I think about you, how your gettin along, every day. And im glad to hear from you, however breif it is these days.
to bancheck: I take note of what you say.
Jan, I don’t expect them to come over here. Im just trying to get the fact that what they see going on over here is not us, but a corrupt government and that there will never be any accountibillity here but that there can be, should be in the world criminal court.
Dear Republican Bancheck who must also be religious but of what religion? I know of nothing more unholy.. than someone who wishes the death of another…. New York and Los Angelos are no more unholy than the rest of the world… maybe even less unholy than most of it….
Jan, I wonder how Iran will ever deliver any significant nuclear weapons to LA or New York. To destroy these cities to any effective degree, it would probably take a minimum of thirty airbursts, at the 5,000 ft altitude, and equivilant to the Japan bombs. That means that they need the equivalant number of delivery platforms (ICBM’S) that can rech here, from there, which they don’t have. An improved SCUD missle at best, is only a tactical battlefield delivery platform. He can wish in one hand, and shit in the other, but guess which one fills up first?
T-H-A-T-SSSS R-I-G-H-T,,,AND BESIDES, SINCE WHEN DOES IRAN WANT TO DO SUCH A THING? I THINK THEY DON’T.
This is quite a list of “crimes”, coming from the same Leftists that thought Bill Clinton’s perjury was justified since it was just “about sex.”
Let’s start with “targeting civilian infrastructure to create civil and social collapse on an epic scale,” this is an interesting charge. One would have to question how you came up with this charge? The fact is that Iraq kept their military buried within the civilian community, as do all mideast countries. It is understandable that civilian infrastructure would be damaged to get to the military, but to claim that the civilian infrastructure was targeted is a bit of a stretch.
“Killing innocent men, women, and children and doing so with malice of forethought.” Again, an interesting charge. But based on what evidence? Maybe because that was the only way to get to the Iraqi military? Was there any evidence given that the civilians were the specific targets? No, the military was the target, but they used civilian “human shields” making the death and injury of “innocent civilians” militarily necessary, the blame for that lies not with Bush, but rather, with Saddam himself.
“Causing untold levels human suffering the likes of which can only be compared to the worst atrocities in history.” Would these “atrocities” be any worse than the murder of innocent civilians specifically targeted in the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center? Possibly worse than the murder of several million Jews in Germany during World War II? Maybe they are worse than the atrocities committed by the Japanese all over Asia and the Pacific islands during World War II? Worse than forcing filipinas and korean women into sexual slavery in japanese bordelloes? Would they be worse than Saddam’s own atrocities? The rape rooms? The mass murders of his own citizens? The use of nerve gas on the kurds?
What experience do you have in military strategy, “General”? What experience do you have in running military operations, “General”? I’m thinking NONE.
You say, “Colin Powell lied to the UN.” Follow that with, “Bush lied in the State of the Union Address” and “He and his staff lied to us 935 separate times.” You don’t give any evidence that they lied, you just make an unsubstantiated charge. Have you forgotten, in your undying hatred of the American way of life, that every intelligence agency from every country agreed with our interpretation of the intel that Iraq had WMD? Maybe you forgot that even the UN inspectors said Saddam was hiding WMD until Scott Ritter decided it was politically expediant to change his opinion.
“Weapons of mass destruction? Yes, I guess they missed those, because there were none and they knew that going in.” Again, your proof? Here’s mine, refer to the above paragraph. Add to that the following. The American military found more than 500 shells of serrin nerve gas, I’m sure you remember reading about that in the paper, for only one day, until the left-wing media decided to hide that story. Or maybe you remember my son’s unit finding a wharehouse full of 55 gallon drums containg the chemicals needed to make chemical weapons, no you won’t remember that, it was politically incorrect to run that story since it didn’t fit with how evil Bush is and how innocent Saddam was.
“Terrorists? Yes, I guess they missed those those as well, because at that point there were none of those in Iraq either and they knew that then too.” Again, no evidence, just an accusation from you and the far left. Here is my evidence, one of the Al-qaeda leaders went to Iraq to be treated after we got him cornered and seriously wounded in a battlre in Afghanistan. I’m sure you remember the “one-leggede sheik”? Maybe not, it wouldn’t be politically expediant for you to remember that little fact.
“They intended to hit civilian areas in order to create ’shock and awe’, in order to terrorize the civilian population into submission for the OCCUPATION that was to follow.” Again, no evidence, just an accusation. I’d like to counter that, but it is so crazy, even Alex Jones wouldn’t make that argument, bet you are proud of being considered crazier than him.
“The following quote proves that since the beginning of this illegal war, the Department of Defense had every intention for this ’shock and awe’ to have an effect on the population of Iraq, not just its leaders.
‘Rumsfeld said that the strike had taken place “on a scale that indicates to Iraqis” that Saddam and his leadership were finished.’ CNN”. Huh??That quote doesn’t prove any such thing, what that quote proves is that we sent a message that the Iraqis were now safe from Saddam’s atrocities. The fact that they themselves later hanged him, was proof that they no longer feared or needed to fear him.
How about this gem? “Bush is guilty of crimes against humanity and of waging an illegal war of aggression against a sovereign nation for the purpose of gaining access to its natural resources.” What natural resources did we gain access to? Would it be the oil that is sold almost everywhere but here? We certainly aren’t getting much of that. We still get most of our oil from our “great ally Hugo Chavez” in Venezuela.
Every accusation you have made is a false accusation that would never stand up in any court outside of the America hating UN and its world court. Every reason Bush and his administration gave for going into Iraq was correct and agreed to by the world community. The only reason the UN didn’t support the invasion of Iraq was the simple fact that most of their senior people were taking bribes from Saddam, I’m sure you will recall the “oil for food” scandal. Sorry, I guess you won’t since it doesn’t fit into your perfect little anti-Bush agenda.
Torture? How would all like to wage war? Tickle them? Invite them to a coffee?
I voted for Obama, and am a bit of a pacifist. But I tell you this, when war is finally waged, all bets are off. We completely annihilated two of Japan’s major cities in WWII… killed hundred of thousands if not millions with two bombs… That’s the cost of waging war. A little torture? You need to put this shit in perspective.
Everyone tortures. Some don’t get caught, others are just plain stupid about it, and do get caught…Unfortunately our military has been headed by the chief of stupid for the past eight years… War is ugly which is why we need to find other ways to settle disputes… but when war is waged…there is no “fair”
Chinese fighting includes poking out eyes pulling hair biting… Some tell me that this is sissy way… I say…If I decide that I need to enter into combat with you…then I’ll do whatever I need to do to save my own life…. and that includes “torture”
Mull it over…you’re entitled to your opinion…but you aren’t changing mine.
dcbarton;
1. You use the term “leftist” as if it were a curse. Check out the sermon on the mount, and compare it’s ideological tenets to current “left/right” tendencies. Which come closest to the professed roots of the main religon practiced today in this country?
2. Bill Clinton should have been impeached for lying under oath (and many other things, IMO) I have never said otherwise.
3.”The fact is that Iraq kept their military buried within the civilian community…” Your’s is not an uncommon charge as the Israelis often try to pass off innocent civilian casualties as being the fault of the Palestinian “terrorists” because they “hid behind human shields”. But this is proven time and time again to be an overly simplistic excuse for intentionally targeting and killing innocent civilians.
4. “but to claim that the civilian infrastructure was targeted is a bit of a stretch.” All you have to do here is go to the link I posted in the article and read the “Shock and Awe” stury itself. It specificly talks about the need to destroy that infrastructure in order to further demoralize the population to be occupied.
Also, you should read up on the first months of the occupation and the C.P.A.’s first few decisions; ie, deBathification, disbanding the Iraqi army, failure to halt looting… All of these things led to the breakdown of the Iraq society, much more so than needed to be accomplished. The war was practically over at that point, and the insurgency was created in a large part Because of these things.
5. “…the blame for that lies not with Bush, but rather, with Saddam himself.” Saddam was pretty much a “paper tiger” sitting on a large deposit of cash. Saddam is not to blame for the use of cluster munitions or depleted Uranium on civilian areas. Or for the use of White Phos. munitions on Falujah.
Saddam had his issues and certainly was no angel, however, just because Saddam was in the neighborhood, does not mean that the careful student of history can blame the Saddam-boogie-man for every sin committed at the time. Saddam didn’t lie us into war and Saddam didn’t hand over multi billion dollar no-bid contracts to his ex-companies either. This is reality time, here and now. We can’t afford partisan blindness right now. (see #2)
6. You forget where Saddam got that nerve gas to use on the Kurds? He got it from Donald Rumsfeld, thank you. No, this is not that much worse than the things you mention up there, nor is it too much worse than what we did in East Timor, or Iran in 1953, or Chile in 1973, or firebombing Japan before dropping atomic bombs on a country that was trying to surrender, or Clinto helping to starve a million Iraqi children over the sanctions that were meant to drive Saddam out so oil companies could get to their oil fields…
… no, you are right. On this I stand corrected; this criminality is certainly not any worse than what Israel is currently doing to the 1.5 million innocent people in Gaza, the largest open-air concentration camp in history. Thank you for helping me put that into perspective (I get carried away sometimes).
7. “…what that quote proves is that we sent a message that the Iraqis were now safe from Saddam’s atrocities.” Please explain to me how we are sending a message that the people of Iraq are now “safe” by blowing the shit out of civilian areas of Baghdad and killing hundreds of civilians in the process. That’s a curious logic. Again, I refer you to the “blind faith in party” comment and answer #2 of mine. (and in case you haven’t noticed, I’m a little critical of Obama to boot)
8. Let me point this out for you in case you might have missed it; Iraq was the #2 supplier of oil in the world before this war, and they helped keep the price down, by means of competition and since their fields were Nationalised, the profit margin was less so the price per barrel was kept low.
We didn’t go in there just to hack up the oil fields for Exxon/Shell/and BP, oh no… you see, Saudi Arabia doesn’t get a payday that way.
So the first thing they did was turn OFF the pumps. See, that way the Saudis could run up the price per barrel. What was it, $29 bucks per barrel when we started? And what was it this past spring? $149? How many quarters did Exxon and Shell post record profits in a row? 14? 15?
So, yes, it was about their natural resources. Not to drive the price down and benifit the people of this country, but rather to drive the price up to benifit a few. And if you have any other questions about that, just google Cheney’s secret “energy meetings” in Jan of 2001 (while Bush was meeting the NSA people telling them to find a reason to go to war with Iraq) and look at the maps of Iraq’s oil fields and how Cheney and the oil execs were planning to chop ou the “natural resources” of Iraq.
Maybe even you would be able to draw a conclusion from that.
9. “The only reason the UN didn’t support the invasion of Iraq was the simple fact that most of their senior people were taking bribes from Saddam”
This one is the easiest of all.
The reason that the UN Security Council didn’t support the illegal invasion of Iraq was because the UN inspectors that had been helping to disarm Saddam for over a decade KNEW there were no Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq. Google Scott Ritter, an American UN Weapons Inspector.
And as it turned out, there were no Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq, were there?
Yes, the oil for food scandal was corruption and should have been punished (last time… see #2) but, that hardly blankets everything wrong that was done on everyone elses part in the run up to the war and that certainly doesn’t mean that the UN inspectors (and some Pentagon intel agents) that said Iraq had no WMDs were wrong. In fact, they were right on the money.
You seem to misunderstand. This is more about Obama not investigating Bush, than it is an “anti-Bush agenda”. (It’s an anti-PaxAmericana agenda more than anything else.)
Robert Frost;
I think we can wage a war against pretty much any country at this point without targeting civilians. Conventional warfare that is. China may be a problem, hell maybe even Iran or Russia…
But my point is not that torture is or isn’t justified. I just say it is against the law and therefore it is illegal, according to our laws. Now you can say what you want about whether it is just or not, or whether it’s practice brings the same kind of treatment back to our soldiers, or not… that is not my place to say.
But right now, it is illegal for us to torture prisoners of war, or even “enemy combatants” for that matter. That’s why every one is so concerned about the definition of the tactics used.
Yes, soldiers do what they have to in times of war.
But that is vastly different than setting a moral precident that toruture is permitted by the United States of America. Were we to do that, how long till they start torturing everyday criminals? Oh wait… done that already, huh?
Now, of course, there is a certain code soldiers should live by. Here’s an example: shooting sailors who have left their sinking ship and are in their life rafts after the battle is illegal. It is also immoral and against the “code” of naval warfare.
Torture is kind of looked at the same way. Hell, even McCain admits that he was only “tortured” for the first 2 years of his captivity. The last 3, according to him, they got a new commandant (if that is the right word) who didn’t approve of torture. And that was the NVA.
You can look at things however you like, Mr. Frost, but I tend to think that this country, and this world, would be a little better off if we are able to maintain a few civilities in this post 9/11 world.
You know what … I’ve just decided that robbing Banks is OK … Everybody does it … “Some don’t get caught, others are just plain stupid about it, and do get caught” … That doesn’t mean it should be wrong for those who don’t get caught or … looked for … just because a million plus innocent men women and children in the lobby were slowly torchered and killed in the process doesn’t make it wrong “You need to put this shit in perspective” … I mean If my life is at stake consider that bank plundered … Right??? “…….” Hello?? “…….”
Well I’ll move on then since I just totally won that argument
Willy, Scott, Jan … I mean come on … chill out people … These are just war crimes we are talking about here … I saw a quote recently somewhere that said something to the effect of “A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man”(Or posterity if you will) “A debt which he proposes to pay off with YOUR money”
HaaaaHa Ha Ha Haaaaaaa Haaaaaaaa …. Hoooo Hoooo Heee Heee ….
Now let me take it upon myself to finish that quote for Mr. G Gordon Liddy because I know he won’t mind …
“Thrusting unending illegal an unnecessary wars based on lies a third grader could spot upon innocent people who are unable to fully engage you to defend themselves … using everyone else’s money BUT mine … now that’s where the action is” …. Right guys … Am I right?? “……….” Hello?? “……..” Damn I’m on a winning streak today
You “liberals” are fun to argue with … I didn’t even have to look anything up … like … Oh what are they called again it’s been so long ….. Oh ya FACTS ….
Hey scott I miss you to buddy … but where’s the horn dog that we’ve all come to know and love?? I know she’s no Nancy Pelosi or anything but usually you would at least make a cat call …. an “AWWWWWW!!” or something… Don’t let these douchebags take your humanity to my friends … then they WILL have won …. In the end the real test for all of us is this … will you be the selfish one who robs that bank at the expense of two million innocent soles simply to buy yourself a little more time or will you be the one that says NO!!???
Why did you gloss over the “best for the country” text? Should we infer that what is best for the country is not something that concerns you?
There’s now way in hell Congress will open up an investigation of the many Bush/Cheney Junta War Crimes, since many in Congress were complicit enablers in those crimes.
Pelosi and her little band of bitches in the House and Reid and his batch of ass kissing quislings in the Senate knew about many of the Bush/Cheney crimes before they were started thru WH briefings.
If Congress started a true investigation, damn near half or so of the Congress would wind up in the dock next to Bush and Cheney.
We’ve lost our country and we have to decide how far we’re willing to go to get it back.
びっくり ;
I didn’t gloss over it… it’s right there for all to read.
However, I don’t think letting this president get away with murder is what’s “best for the country”… do you?
However, it is probably more politically advantagous for Obama if he were to let Bush slide.
And I’d also like to add … let’s not confuse country with “party” … again … see #2 …. Last I heard Fascism wasn’t so great for any country … good for the Party maybe … A few at the top getting away with whatever they want while personally throwing the book at everyone else for even the most minor of offenses … not so good for the country I grew up in … good for the party …. war crimes and scraping OUR constitution FOR us … good for the party … not so good for the country …. Not for the kind of country worth saving anyway ….
That’s a damn good point jack. So often people get confused thinking that what is good for their “party” is the best thing for the country by the simple fact that their “party” is better, one way or the other. If Bush and Clinton have taught us anything, it should be that the only “party” they care about and serve, is the Business Party.
I guess you must have scared them off willy … How come I can’t get a couple of douchebags to come over to MY blog and try arguing with me about prosecuting Bush for his CRIMES or 911 truth and WTC demolition like they do for you …. must be the snappy titles
JD!!! ARE YOU BACK ON LINE??? JD JD DO YOU COPY OVER
I think most of them come here looking for porn. That’s where the money is, anyway.
That’s why I doctored up the pic of the chic with the poster; trying to sex-up the place.
WELL, HELL. LETS LOOK AT SOME.
I went over to JD’s blog amd he has ‘porn’ pictures. I thnk. Something off to the side that suggests ‘women’. I didn’t go to that… if it had been men, now I might have been tempted.
He does have a new posting up about money…. and a poor man selling apples for five cents each….go look at it…..
Opps you are too late. I just jumped over there and its gone but the FlickR picture is still there and its worth looking at.
“The joy of Living”… exhilerating…. remember when you felt like jumping for joy? It was wonderful to be alive? Been a long time for most people… but hey… maybe we just over look it…. just seeing a smile can make you feel good…. or hearing someone laugh… I love to hear laughter… and to laugh… or taking a shower… feels so good….
Willylomen,
1. The Sermon on the Mount, good point. Silly me, how could I ever forget when Jesus said, “Thy Government should steal the fruits of thy labor and give thy fruits to thy neighbors too lazy to work, lest thy lazy neighbors feel less worthy, and possibly feel required to get off thy lazy neighbors’ asses and get jobs to pay their own way.” That sermon always did bring a tear to my eye, and an empty feeling to my wallet.
3.Civilians weren’t “targeted” in Iraq, the military and government installations were. But with those installations “buried” in civilian area collateral damage was going to occur. It is regrettable, but it was necessary.
4. The link you refer to says absolutely nothing about “demoralizing the population.” It does say “use of overwhelming power, dominant battlefield awareness, dominat maneuvers, and spectacular displays of force to paralyze an adversary’s perception of the battlefield and destroy it’s will to fight.” It was written in 1996, during the Clinton administration.
5. “Saddam was pretty much a ‘paper tiger’ sitting on a large deposit of cash.” He was also encouraging terrorism by paying the families of suicide bombers, he was shooting at our planes in the UN mandated “no-fly zone,” sending assassin squads after our former Presidents and military officers, and providing medical care and a hiding place for Al-Qaeda leadership after we went into Afghanistan.
6. Japan trying to surrender? Now you are inventing “facts.” Japan had no intention of surrendering and made no attempt to do so. The firebombing and atomic bombs were to prevent the deaths of hundreds of thousands of American soldiers and marines in an invasion of the Japanese mainland.
The sanctions against Iraq were part of the cease-fire agreement after the first gulf war, mandated by the UN, no less.
1.5 million innocent people in Gaza? This one really confuses me. Would those be the same 1.5 million innocent people that continually fire rockets into Israel? Or the ones that break into Israeli homes to murder children in their beds? Or maybe you meant the innocent suicide bombers that target restaurants and buses full of Israeli children? Sorry, I always forget how the murder of children is really just excusable innocence.
7. It’s also rather curious that you seem to ignore thousands of American soldiers murdered by the “innocent civilians” or the indisputable fact that the insurgents and Al-Qaeda have killed a hundred times as many Iraqis as we have.
8. So what you really meant was that we didn’t go in to get their natural resources, we just wanted the terrorists to destroy their oil fields and pipelines. You should have said that in the first place.
Exxon and Shell’s record profits? At $149 a barrel? Have you ever actually run a business? Exxon and Shell buy that oil, higher oil prices are bad for the profit margin. The record profits came from record demand. One question, did you complain all the years that oil companies were losing money? I’m betting that you didn’t.
9. Scott Ritter at first said Saddam had WMD and was not complying with inspectors. Only after we started ramping up for war did he change his story.
“And as it turned out, there were no Weapons of Mass Destruction, were there?” Yes, as I said earlier, we found at least 500 shells containing serrin nerve gas. And my son’s unit found a wharehouse full of 55 gallon drums containing all of the chemicals necessary to make chemical weapons.
What you have is an anti-Bush agenda in that Bush has done nothing to be investigated for.
WHAT UNIT FOUND THESE CHEMICALS, WHERE WERE THEY DISCOVERED, WHEN WERE THEY DISCOVERED.? WHAT WERE THE CONTENTS OF THES DRUMS YOU CLAIM WERE CHEMICALS FOR C B R WARFARE? WERE THEY EXPIRED AND INERT, IF YOU KNOW? HONEST GOOD FAITH QUESTIONS SIR.
YOU RIGHT WING NEOCONSERVITIVE BUSH SUPPORTERS WILL NOT COME IN HERE AND DISCREDIT US AND MAKE CLAIMS LIKE ABOVE WITHOUT BEING CHALLANGED TO SUBMIT SUPPORTIVE EVIDENCE. A WAREHOUSE FULL OF DRUMS OF CHEMICALS DOES NOT A WEAPON MAKE. FIVE MI FROM MY PRESENT LOCATION IS ALSO A WAREHOUSE FULL OF AGRO CHEMICALS THAT CAN BE LETHAL WITHOUT PRECAUTIONS.
YOU HAVE GOT TO FACE THE FACT. THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS BEEN HIJACKED BY FRINGE EXTREEMIST’S HIDING BEHIND THE REPUBLICASN BANNER. THEY OCCUPY BOTH REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRAT POSITIONS BUT MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT, THEY ARE AS FRINGE EXTREEME AS ANY TERRORIST ORGANIZATION AND THEY ARE MARRIED TO THE LARGEST BANKING INTERRESTS, THE MILLITARY INDUSTRIAL CORPORATIONS AND THE LARGE OIL COMPANIES.
OOOH MR DC BARTON HOW THEY MUST LOVE YOU. YOU STAND TOTALLY DIFIANT TOWARD ALL THAT OPPOSE THEM, YOU WAVE THEIR FLAG, THEIR BANNER, THAT YOU WAVE SO PROUDLY, AND YOU DEFEND THEM. YOU EXCEPT THEIR RHETORIC, UNQUESTIONABLY, AND I KNOW YOU WOULD LOVE TO SEE ALL US TYPES HERE LOCKED AWAY SOMEWHERE FOREVER. ISN’T THAT SO SIR?
WELL BELEIVE IN THEM ALL YOU WANT. BUT I KNOW FOR YOU THE DAY OF RECONING IS COMMING WHEN YOU, LIKE THE FORMER GERMAN PEOPLE OF THE 1930′S DID, YOU WILL FACE A REALITY THE LIKES OF WHICH WILL SHOCK YOU. I ACTUALLY PITY YOU. BUT WHEN THAT DAY ARRIVES, WE’LL SAVE A PLACE FOR YOU HERE AS OTHER’S BEFORE YOU HAVE AWAKENED TO THE TRUTH.. ALL IN DUE TIME SIR, ALL IN DUE TIME.
two other points MR DCBARTON, we are not OBAMA supporters either. ANDDDDDD!
BEFORE YOU CONTINUE CHEERING FOR EVERY PALISTANIAN DEATH, YOU BETTER GO DO SOME HONEST OBJECT RESEARCH ON WHAT THE FACTS CURRENTLY ARE IN THE GAZA STRIP.
Hey, you sleep well tonight. I mean that.
Hey SCOTT … I’m sort of online now but its hit or miss since I’m sharing a friends online account … not like my 24/7 access that I had before … and as far as DCbarton here is concerned I’m still waiting to see some proof of what he’s saying or some links to some(that actually go somewhere) at the very least … With people like him It always seems to be like “I have all this proof Bush is a saint and everything is fine” … “What’s that … you want to actually see it … It’s on the way and you’ll be sorry when it gets here” …. “What’s that … it’s not on the way … well you get my point … the point has been made I say!!”
Well DC … I have proof worthy of any court of law that says George Bush is a lying sack of shit … deserving of a noose after years and years of torture if he was any other person in the world … or muslim apparently … But if your not even going to look(just a guess) DCbarton quit waisting our time … because at the end of the day that’s all your really trying to do here isn’t it??
I’ll say it again willy … where is my hardcore Bush fan stooge type for my blog … I actually want one!!
Hey Jan … as always it was a pleasure to see your new comment there waiting for me …. It makes all of the time spent formulating my posts worth while ….
How would all like to wage war?
What war? The US Congress alone has the constitutional right to declare war and NO war has been declared, only an AUMF–Authorization to Use Military Force.
As for as the comments by DC Barton, sounds like he’s got one glued to the radio, listening to Rush Limbaugh and the other glued to FUX, listening to their special brand of agitprop.
The UN did not mandate a “No-Fly” Zone over parts of Iraq, that was instituted by the Brits and the USA.
And your stupid ass comment that aL Qaida has killed hundreds times as many Iraqi’s as we did shows you are nothing more than a right-wing mouthpiece, trying to sanitize the Bush/Cheney War Crimes.
If AQ had killed a 100 times more Iraqi’s, there wouldn’t be any Iraqi’s left, since that country only had around 25 million people to start with and over four million of those Iraqi’s have left that war ravaged nation to seek shelter in Syria, Jordan and Iran.
Using death counts from various sources, the US and it’s “Coalition of the Killing” have murdered anywhere from 100,000 to One Million Iraqi’s… do the math Einstein.
One more question, Mr. Kill them all Now, what branch of the US military did you do your service to America in?
Army?
Navy?
Marines?
Or were you like those chicken shit chicken hawks, Bush and Cheney, and either go AWOL from your post like Bush or dodge the draft, like Cheney?
So scurry back to Tel Aviv or DC and crawl underneath that rock you share with the Neocons and Zionists.
But there are WMD’s in Iraq: Left there by several thousand tons of depleted uranium rounds we used to blow the hell out of a country that had NOTHING to do with 9/11 and was NO threat to the US, but Israel declared that Iraq was an “existential” threat and needed to be destroyed.
Here’s a little history lesson from before the Iraq invasion. These days, just substitute the word Iran for Iraq.
(CBS) Israel is urging U.S. officials not to delay a military strike against Iraq’s Saddam Hussein, an aide to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said Friday.
JERUSALEM, Aug. 16, 2002
Israeli intelligence officials have gathered evidence that Iraq is speeding up efforts to produce biological and chemical weapons, said Sharon aide Ranaan Gissin.
“Any postponement of an attack on Iraq at this stage will serve no purpose,” Gissin said. “It will only give him (Saddam) more of an opportunity to accelerate his program of weapons of mass destruction.”
The United States has been considering a military campaign against Iraq to remove Saddam from power, listing him as one of the world’s main terrorist regimes. However, there is considerable world opposition to a U.S. strike.
As evidence of Iraq’s weapons building activities, Israel points to an order Saddam gave to Iraq’s Atomic Energy Commission last week to speed up its work, Gissin said.
“Saddam’s going to be able to reach a point where these weapons will be operational,” he said.
To use the brutal words of Ranaan Gissin, an aide to then Israeli PM Ariel Sharon: “Any postponement of an attack on Iraq at this stage will serve no purpose.”
Maybe not Israel’s purpose, but what about the rest of the civilized world?
Did some research on Dcbarton and found this blog and his favorite links.
You should be proud DC, your blog list would make Hitler’s Minister of Propaganda, Josef Goebbels, jealous.
You consider FOX mouthpiece, Alan Colmes, to be part of the liberal agenda?
Jesus H. Christ.
Conservative Blogs
Ann Coulter
Michelle Malkin
Conservative Talk Radio
Glenn Beck
Larry Elder
Mark Levin
Mike Reagan
Rush Limbaugh
Sean Hannity
Liberal Talk Radio
Alan Colmes
http://dcbarton.wordpress.com/
Goddamm! I love it when Greg gets pissed!! wow! it was like having phantoms come in and napham everything for me!!!!!
Yeah…. Greg… great pissing on Barton.
I went to his blog and found an interesting article about Obama who is a self-loving mentally ill scary piece of work (according to Barton’s article) The following is a cpy of one of the paragraphs from his article:
“I hate to sound alarmist, but one must be a fool if one is not alarmed. Many politicians are narcissists. They pose no threat to others. They are simply self-serving and selfish. [Witness Al Gore's Income Tax; it reveals that he gave away NO MONEY to charities, not even to a church!] Obama evinces symptoms of pathological narcissism, which is different from the run-of-the-mill narcissism of a Richard Nixon or Bill Clinton, for example. To him reality and fantasy are intertwined. This is a mental health issue, not just a character flaw. Pathological narcissists are dangerous because they look normal and even intelligent. It is this disguise that makes them treacherous. [Look up the word 'treachery.']”
Really scary… for America…
QUESTION FOR BARTON: Bush claims he HEARS instructions from God… teling him what to do. Doesn’t that make Bush a pathological narcissists? Or at least as scary as any Hitler ever was? Or do you beleive that God will tell someone to kill innoccent people?
If the global bankers are controling this country and trying to control the world, wouldn’t it make sense that they would replace Bush with someone just like Bush?
SCOTT ALLEN HUMPHREY, “What unit found these chemicals, where were they discovered, when were they discovered?” You didn’t read it in the media for a reason, it was classified to keep the enemy from knowing about it. What was released was the information about the 500 shells containing nerve gas that you choose to merely ignore since it doesn’t support your assertion thsat there were no WMD in Iraq.
“You right wing neoconservative Bush supporters will not come in here and discredit us…” Ok, so what you mean is no dissent is allowed. Got it, I’ll remember next time.
“The Republican party has been hijacked by fringe extremists…” Actually, the Republican party merely lost its way and went to the left, which is the reason they lost the support of their conservative base. I would argue that the Democrats have been hijacked by the far left extremists.
Regarding the comparison to the people of 1930’s Germany, the Nazi’s were the National Socialist Party. They pulled industry under government control, controlled what people could see and hear, killed their opposition much like the Democrats (with the exception of killing their opposition, although, by JackDanielsDouglas’ comment on Bush deserving a noose that may not be too far in our future).
“Before you continue cheering for every Palestinian death…” Please point out where I cheered the death of any Palestinians. I never did. As far as “honest object research,” how is this? The Jews began purchasing land in the early 20th century, right after WWI. They purchased this land, at the prices of the times, from the Palestinian landowners who were all to happy to have the money. In 1948 the UN recognized Israel as a sovereign nation. Israel was attacked almost immediately by seven arab nations. These seven nations were defeated by Israel, but the attacks against Israel have continued alsmost unabated ever since. While Israel has gained territory in Gaza, we hear about it constantly, they also lost territory in Jerusalem. We never hear about that, it isn’t “politically correct.” While there have been numerous peace agreements between the Palestinians and Israel, the Palestinians have always attacked again after Israel starts to pull out (remember the last pullout in Gaza, within weeks palestinians were firing rockets from Gaza into Israel). The Left always blames Israel when all Israel does is retaliate. They use the reasoning that Israel shouldn’t retaliate because their military is so much bigger than any forces the Palestinians have (if you have a big army you should lay down and die rather than defend yourself).
While the Left calls Bush a “Nazi” they, themselves, engage in hitleresque anti-semitism (less the gas chambers so far).
JackDanielDouglas,
I never said that Bush was a “saint.” I do, however, believe is right on the war, he is wrong for signing every spending bill the Democrats sent to him and capitulating to them almost constantly since he took the White House.
I took a look at your “evidence.” You have been listening to Alex Jones too much.
“…quit wating our time…” is a typical response from the left. Free speech and debate are good things, unless it is from the conservative right.
Greg Bacon,
The declaration of war was after 9/11. The AUMF was an extension of that war to Iraq, not unlike WII when we went into France, Italy and Africa as well as the entire pacific region, while we were at war with Germany and Japan, and occasionally Italy.
As far as my military history, I grew up in an Air Force family, served four years in the Marines, two and a half years in the National Guard, and am currently an Army father.
“Neocons and zionists?” Somewhat biased aren’t you?
While only a few nations supported the invasion of Iraq, all major intelligence agencies agreed with our own intel, and yes, Israel’s, that Iraq had WMD and was building still more.
Iran has been a threat to us since the Carter-Khomeini debacl in 1978. And they continue to be, unless you choose to believe that Ahmedinejad’s rhetoric is merely idle chit chat. Personally, I don’t.
Thanks for the plug on my blogs. Regarding Alan Colmes, he is the onbly liberal I can listen to for more than 5 minutes without shoving a screw driver into my ears. Even in his case, ten minutes would be too long. Just so you know, Rush isn’t on XM so I don’t listen to him, but Mark Levin is much better than Limbaugh ever was anyhow.
After looking at all of your blogs, I guess I wandered into an anti-semitic enclave. Would you be KKK or Nazi’s?
See now, I resent the accusation of being associated with the KKK. nothing could be further from the truth reference me, and the other regulars in here. And as far as being a Nazi, come onnnnnnnnnn.
So, if you could get us here to change our ways, what would you like to see changed about us?
The declaration of war was after 9/11
Barton, I defy you to show me the actual info that states the US declared war against Iraq.
There is no such declaration.
Here’s what was voted for:
“The President is authorized to use all means that he determines to be appropriate, including force, in order to enforce the United Nations Security Council Resolutions referenced above, defend the national security interests of the United States against the threat posed by Iraq, and restore international peace and security in the region.”
- The culminating statement of Congress’ Joint Resolution, SJ Res 45, Authorization For Use of US Armed Forces, September 30, 2002
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/july-dec02/joint_resolution_10-11-02.html
Since, according to our Constitution, only Congress has the authority to declare war, the president had to seek their approval. Even then, Bush did not seek a formal declaration of war from Congress. Bush sought, and received, authority to use US military force to back UN Resolutions which would counter any threat posed by Iraq, defending our national security.
The homicidal maniacs Bush and Cheney tried to get the UN to give their planned invasion of Iraq some legitimacy, but the Security Council wouldn’t give Junior what he wanted.
While only a few nations supported the invasion of Iraq, all major intelligence agencies agreed with our own intel..
Another crock of shit.
Germany didn’t agree with our pack of lies the Bush/Cheney Junta spread regarding Iraq. Neither did France.
Or China….. Or Russia.
Let’s see, who does that leave? The Marshall Islands?
You didn’t read it in the media for a reason, it was classified to keep the enemy from knowing about it.
Another crock of shit.
If any legit Iraqi WMD’s had been found in Iraq, besides those leftover, rusted out artillery shells from the first Operation Desert Slaughter in 1991, the Bush/Cheney Junta would have been parading them down Main Street, showing America and the world they were right.
Classified to protect the enemy? You got that one right, the enemy being Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfled, Feight, Wolfowitz, Blair, et al.
Protect them from being indicted.
With no WMD’s being found in Iraq, the Bush/Cheney Junta spun lie after lie about why we invaded Iraq and why we still we staying.
To bring democracy to Iraq; to honor the fallen dead troops; To stabilize the region we HAD destabilized; etc.
All helped along by a compliant and subservient MSM, like those shit breathers at FUX and those disinfo specialists at CNN.
All helped along by a nation scared shitless by the 9/11 attacks.
What the “Project for the New American Century” would call “another Pearl Harbor,” which they needed to ignite a ME conflict, beef up the military and shred the Bill of Rights and turn America into a quasi-police state.
Done and done.
We’ve barely got a country left, thanks to those liars, thieves and mass murderers in the Bush/Cheney Junta who lied us into illegal wars and helped their buddies on Wall Street loot pension funds and stockholders assets blind.
The enemy we face is from within, not without.
P.S. Tell me, if Bin Laden is the supposed devil behind the 9/11 attacks, why doesn’t the FBI’s Most Wanted Terrorists web page BL listing not say he is wanted for 9/11?
Mr Barton, Let me ask you this, please. Are you aware of the organization called THE PROJECT FOR A NEW AMERICAN CENTURY? If you are, have you spent any time reading their views, and their agenda? If you have been aware of their views and agenda, what is your oppinion of their views and their agenda? You see, it appears to me that their views and agenda mathimaticly fits in to the events of 9-11. And this is where all this actually begins. But if you go back further, there is much more events that occured that, if your objective, will appear highly suspissious.
For instance, the attempt by this government, on behalf of UNICAL, to get the Taliban to except a $$$ deal for a natural gas pipeline through Afghanistan. And im being breif on this, they wouldn’t deal, and latter, there we are in Afghanistan, President bush is shouting (to Osama)
” you can run, but you can’t hide”. Remember him saying that? We never did get Osama, did we? But we sure as hell did in fact get the pipeline in there we originally wanted, didn’t we? And that pipeline is the only effecient occurence that has taken place in Afghanistan. We damm sure didn’t stop the heorin trade there, now did we? We damm sure didn’t create any change in their treatment of their women, did we? Perhaps we don’t possess the right to get them to change their treatment of their woman.
I don’t have time to cover every issue. The views i possess, came about from the last 5 or six years and it would take me all day of typing here to lay it all out for you.
It would have been nice to have had some honest objective investigation over certain relivant matters that have occured beginning with certain questions related to 9-11. but the Bush administration has not been forthcomming what so ever. As a result, that is waht puts me today with my present state of mind. And ill admit, im not the biggest gun here.
Im sure however, the bigger guns in here will come in and fill the gaps for me.
You and all of us here can exchange insult after insult till Hell freezes over. No good will ever come from that.
Goddamm barton, arn’t you the least suspissious of what is going on in this country? You can’t really beleive all this shit goin on is just normal happenstance. I hope you are at least concerned that out of all this going on, that it could lead to a serious dispute that can lead to violence? a revolt? And armed revolt? Some of us are beginning to think in those terms. I am. What say you to that? do you think that will just be easily resolved? In one day? This is serious shit man! Your side and my side seems only interrested in exchanging insults which will only serve to fan the flames of dessent to the bioling point. We need to get some of these disputes worked out befor that occures. Don’t you aggree with that?
Or would you like to see all us on the left just gunned down? Thats not the way it will probably turn out. Ok, im gonna stop here, for now.
Scott.
One additional point I forgot to mention. None of the regulars here represent any agenda to get more Democrats in authority. Their just as corrupted, negligent, and as guilty as the neoconservitives are. I think the following is a true statement that, essentially, we all here are political orphans. e have no representation in our government.
thank you
Wow, Barton, you have really started something here. Good for you. I hope you are actually reading the info posted by everyone; you will learn something.
BTW; I have a new post up, just for you, dcBarton.
Oh, and just so you know, one can question America’s policies without being “anti-Christian” and by the same measure, one can in fact question the policies of Israel without being anti-semetic.
I hope you agree with that and understand the point.
If you do, I would expect we don’t need anymore comments like this one:
“After looking at all of your blogs, I guess I wandered into an anti-semitic enclave. Would you be KKK or Nazi’s?”
Hate speech of ANY kind is not allowed on this site, and will not be tolerated. And by that I mean, anti-semetic comments as well as unfounded accusations of such.
So please keep that in mind. One can support Palestinian issues while also respecting the Jewish faith (see one of many Israeli Pro-Palestinian groups for proof of that.).
Just like a loser… start calling people ‘names’ when they can’t win a fight. Man… what a great argument you all have put up…. Willyloman, Scott, Greg, and JD….. you guys are GOOD…. and I mean REAL GOOD!!!
Iran has been a threat to us since the Carter-Khomeini debacl in 1978.
Go back a little further, to around 1953, when the democratically elected president of Iran, Mossadegh, was overthrown by the CIA and Britian’s MI5.
All because he stated he wanted to take back Iran’s precious natural resources of oil and natural gas from western interests and use the money on Iran.
Use their country’s wealth for their own needs? What the hell was that man thinking?
We helped forment the “revolution” in Iran and installed our pet bitch, the Shah and helped him set up one of the most dreaded and sadistic secret police agencies, the SAVAK.
The SAVAK were ruthless bastards who could’ve taught the KGB a thing or two.
After 25 years of watching family members being “disappeared,” tortured to death and being shot for the hell of it by the SAVAK, the Iranian people decided they’d had enough and tossed our tin pot dictator, the Shah, out of the country, which led to Khomeini.
This month marks the 50th anniversary of America’s first overthrow of a democratically-elected government in the Middle East.
In 1953, the CIA and British intelligence orchestrated a coup d’etat that toppled the democratically elected government of Iran. The government of Mohammad Mossadegh. The aftershocks of the coup are still being felt.
In 1951 Prime Minister Mossadegh roused Britain’s ire when he nationalized the oil industry. Mossadegh argued that Iran should begin profiting from its vast oil reserves which had been exclusively controlled by the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. The company later became known as British Petroleum (BP).
After considering military action, Britain opted for a coup d’état. President Harry Truman rejected the idea, but when Dwight Eisenhower took over the White House, he ordered the CIA to embark on one of its first covert operations against a foreign government.
The coup was led by an agent named Kermit Roosevelt, the grandson of President Theodore Roosevelt. The CIA leaned on a young, insecure Shah to issue a decree dismissing Mossadegh as prime minister. Kermit Roosevelt had help from Norman Schwarzkopf’s father: Norman Schwarzkopf.
The CIA and the British helped to undermine Mossadegh’s government through bribery, libel, and orchestrated riots. Agents posing as communists threatened religious leaders, while the US ambassador lied to the prime minister about alleged attacks on American nationals….
http://www.democracynow.org/2003/8/25/50_years_after_the_cias_first
Hey Jan … I’m working on another post for Mr “conservative” here … It’s a long one though since he seems to think talking WAY more makes him right just like Hawkster did … DC’s just given me alot to sift through … It should be a good one … I can’t wait to finaly unvail it for you guys … the more they talk the easier it is for this Clown to SMASH baby SMASH ….
willy,
Let’s see
response #1. Scott, “I am absolutely fed up, totally, with the assholes.” and “Goddam them all to hell.”
response #3. Scott, “The only thing is, with the Germans, you can’t say nothing about Israel. That’s too touchy of a subject for them. So I made no mention at all of Israel.”
response #5. Jan, “Bush and his vampires”
response #20. Greg, “Pelosi and her little band of bitches” and “Reid and his band of ass kissing quislings” (I’m no fan of either, but I would not have called them that)
response #24. Jack, “how come I can’t get a couple of douchebags to come to my blog…”
response #35. Greg, “or were you like those chicken shit chicken hawks…”
response #36. Greg, “you should be proud DC, your blog list would make Hitler’s minister of propaganda, Josef Goebbels, jealous.”
response #45. Jan, “just like a loser…start calling people ‘names’ when they can’t win a fight.”
and lastly, response #44. Willy, “hate speech of ANY kind…”
Gotcha, no hate speech or name calling, unless of course it is from those on the left and directed to the right. You gotta love consistancy, eh?
That’s it? That’s all you got? Kinda weak, don’t you think? Don’t you want to accuse us again of being Nazis and KKK members? Ah come on now, you can make something else up if you really put your mind to it. Don’t sell yourself short. Take a breath and think real hard: what would Bill-O do in this situation?
Nice try, Barton, you learn quickly.
Must be from watching all those O’LIElly programs where Billy either changes the subject or tells his guest to SHUT UP or turns off their mic when it gets too hot.
Just change tack and to take the focus off your agitprop.
If you’ve got that link that shows the US declared war on Saddam before our latest invasion, I’d love to read it.
The declaration of war was after 9/11
Barton, I defy you to show me the actual info that states the US declared war against Iraq.
[...] totally uneducated(on the record) am willing to sit down and actually LOOK into what you have to say … IF your willing to look into what I have to say… And I mean LOOK damn it … God [...]
I posted what I have so far … It’s only half done and I still have about a hundred well placed links to put into it but you all can have a preview willy and freinds …
I read it. “gay-fully”? lol…
It’s good. I got to put you on the blog roll over here.
Hey Barton, you should go check out JD’s site up there. Has a nice pic of you enjoying the outdoor life.
Has anyone ever considered the paralles between the the current dispute and the dispute that occured in resulted in the civil war in 18,,was it 1861 ? I don’t think we can resolve our political differences between the two sides.
The financial life blood is, at this very moment being sucked right out of this country yet, we repeatedly have the likes of this Mr Barton comming in here spewing the neoconservitive spin on all of it. They come here with both guns a blazing, shootin from the hip, screamming that red is actually blue, green is yellow, down is up, and left is right. These are educated people, some of them are of my genoration having had the Vietnam experience, Nixon, the Kennedy assanation’s, the MLK assanation, kent state, the protests, I just don’t understand how they got so turned around.
Im convinced that they can’t be changed. Were not getting through to them. they don’t come here seeking answers to the important questions, they come here to verbally attack. Im convinced that if they all had the authority, we all would be rounded up and put in camps, gassed, and put in ovens. Of this i have no doubt. They hate us with a passion i never thought possible between people of the same country. We simply are not getting through to them.
I beleive this disput will progress to the point of a shooting war. Why do i think this? because these necons come here to attack for sport. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I never go to any right wing neoconservitive blog. I stay away from those. I know I have no business there. Maybe thats not so with other’s like minded to me. But i only come here. I don’t go looking for trouble.
So Mr Barton, sir. I beleive you and i, and several dozen million divided between our two sides have an unresolvible dispute that can be settled only one way. At this 11th hr im no longer interrested in any dialog with you or your kind. I have come to the conclusion today, that we have nothing further to discuss and im not interrested in exchanging insults. I would just as soon exchange gun fire as exchange insults. The way i see it, the day of this occuring is more likely than not going to be upon us as soon as your neoconservitive government decides the time is right.
And ill tell you this sir, my oppinion is that the prospect of that occurence probably excites you. And im sorry that that is. And you can thank your beloved dear leader for that. And maybe some day, win lose or draw, the truth will come out, and then …………………..well we’ll see.
Well … I say we roll this boy in dough and poke him in the belly … I’m going to take most of what this walking marketing ploy says and use it against him and the next three just like him …. Come on Scott don’t give up yet … not here …. I’ll just take everything he says and go over it all with a fine toothed comb for you and then we’ll all talk about it later … we’ll have a good laugh over it trust me … these guys HATE to be laughed at …..
Theres millions of these types out there JD. Don’t ask me how that is possible, I don’t know. Willy once said it’s easier for them to let others do their thinking for them.
You know brother JD, and don’t take this as im being down on myself. Cause im not. But my perception of these neocons is, I think their a higher intellect level than I am. Their better educated, they know more than me, their smarter than i am. ok? But i look at the present situations, and i can see factualy what it is, what it means, and then these guys come around, and they say oooh no your all wrong. it’s like this bla bla bla
and you leftwingers need to git a grip. your all traitors. the war is just, bush is godhead. etc etc etc. and bld 7 fell from a class a fire and to think otherwise, means your mentally unballanced. (i had to throw that one in for you brother) quite frankly, im sick of the whole ball o wax. I wanna hit the fuckin beach, i wanna get my hands around someone’s neck and choke the livin shit out of them. This back n forth name callin, well, im just tired of doin that. im not playin that no more!
Im readin MICHAEL MOORS BOOK “DUDE, WHERES MY COUNTRY? He says we should pity these guys like barton. Barton will undoubtbly say that moore is a kook, and should be locked up in a camp. moore does not lie. he calls it like he sees it and i see it as he sees it. I gotta back off a little and rethink some things. Im just sick of all the neocons. I can’t help them, i cant talk to them, they hate so much all they can do is throw insults. They would not do that in my face. And i don’t want to get into pissing contests with them. If our two sides hate each other so much, and will never come to terms, then hell, lets tske it to the higher lever, and settle it once and for all. Fuck it man. or better yet, let the whole country turn into a sea of liquid shit, and then watch them cry for someone to come save their sorry asses. sometimes JD, i just feel like capping motherfuckers. funny though, how the neocons think that left wingers are passive pussies. thats f u n n y…..
Scott;
“‘Tis the times’ plague, when madmen lead the blind.”. King Lear
(just heard that in the Solomon lecture. Thought it fit)
There comes a point, at it has for me, when talking and researching, and shedding light or “waking people up” just seems to be more and more meaningless masterbation. We don’t need another “investigation”, scholars and scientists have been conducting one for 7 years now. We know what happened. Jacking each other off on websites and “papers” won’t ever convince the MSM to tell the truth; of course they won’t tell the truth, they haven’t for decades. There comes a time when caution and reason makes cowards of us all.
So I know how you feel. I prefer this quote myself…
Antony:
…And Caesar’s spirit, ranging for revenge,
With Ate by his side come hot from hell,
Shall in these confines with a monarch’s voice
Cry ‘Havoc,’ and let slip the dogs of war;
That this foul deed shall smell above the earth
With carrion men, groaning for burial.
Julius Caesar, 1601
I went to look at Mr. Conservative on JD’s blog and its not there…. guess Jd is working on it.
You guys been fighting tooth and nail all day and you end up with the great truth…. you can’t change the mind of one who is without a mind of his own.
that sums it up nicely, Jan.
And finally Scott, I want to leave you with this thought. Pessimism and optimism are not diametricly oppossed.
“Antonio Gramsci famously called for “pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will”: the one the spur to action, the other the resilience to believe that such action will result in meaningful change even in the face of adversity.”
Well Scott … isn’t it incredibly handy then knowing that you don’t need to have a good memory … or a High IQ … when your telling the truth … However if what you say about your level of intelagence is true(I don’t see the problem) … You should probably not try to be an evil mastermind anytime soon ….
intelligence LOL … figures I would spell that word wrong … I must have been trying to make Scott feel better ….
Say willy … 61 comments … How does it feel to be busier than ADS.org right now?? ….
You know, I went by ADS the other day, and I saw a video put up by David that delt with 9/11 Truth!
Did you guys see that? I said, holy shit, the body-snatchers got David!
But then I remembered, “oh, yeah. David’s a smart guy, and probably started looking into crap for himself… maybe.”. Hell, I don’t know. But I was very glad to see it. Did you guys see that?
Anyway, I am glad that people are here chatting and talking about these things. Like I told Barton, I enjoy disagreeing about things. But it’s like what you said on your blog, JD; I hope that he does like I do, and he takes the time to look into the opposing side’s evidence.
So yes, I am glad things here are picking up. I hope that ADS becomes more inclusive as to certain issues and discussions, and it looked, at least with that posting, that it was.
Now there is something positive to consider. perhaps these people, such as barton, will come on here, see our resolve, and go off secretly, on their own, and discover the shocking truth.
Ahhhh ….. the way ….
You’re not going to be able to change the minds of many people about who was really behind 9/11 or how the Bush/Cheney Junta lied the USA into a war.
Engage some of these people in conversation with legit facts and some will be willing to listen, maybe even open their closed minds to some truths.
Some will get violent, making threats against you and calling you every known cuss word.
Others will get a wide-eyed look on their face, turn around and walk away without saying a thing. They are completely gone and can’t accept the fact that our government is our WORST enemy.
That’s how effective the WH propaganda and brainwashing has been. It has completely closed down some minds to the point of uselessness.
As for getting our country back, which has been lost to a motley collection of liars, thieves and murderers, it won’t happen by using your commputer keyboard like an Uzi.
It’s going to take the real thing.
It’s time to water the Tree of Liberty with that precious nutrient described by Thomas Jefferson.
Perhaps the problem with promoting this agenda is that most of us don’t believe that they created the bad intel. Sometimes bad intel is just that: bad intel. While it is sad that such a critical decision was made off of it, it does not a conspiracy make.
びっくり
You trying to say that ‘bad intel’ is an accident… well, maybe once or twice .. but over 935 times? come on…. what bag of pop corn did you fall out of?
びっくり:
The truth is not “an agenda” (though you may want to see it that way).
You missed the evidence I gave. The Downing Street memo is proof that they were trying to “shape” the intel to fit the plan (invasion of Iraq).
You also missed the fact that I clearly stated that George Bush is on record now of having suggested that they “paint a plane in UN colors and fly it over Iraq so that Saddam would shoot it down.” and give them a reason to attack.
You have also missed the evidence I linked to saying that at the very first NSA meeting, President Bush came in and the first and ONLY thing on the agenda, was finding a reason to attack Iraq.
Then, 935 lies told to the Amercian people suggesting a need to attack Iraq for nation security reasons. That’s NOT “bad intel”, my friend.
They forged a document that stated Saddam was seeking to obtain yellow-cake uranium from niger.
They forged it.
What part of “forging a document” is bad intel?
Remember those graphics of “mobile weapons labs”? Remember those? They MADE IT UP! It was a lie! just like the rest.
And most importantly, I want you to look up the Office of Special Plans, ok. it was the office set up in the Pentagon, by Rumsfeld and Cheney, with war-hawks who were taking the real intel, and sifting through it in order to CREATE the “bad intel” to support a pre-emptive war with Iraq.
These are the FACTS, if you chose not to look at them, if you choose not to do the research, then so be it. But don’t come back here saying that “most of you don’t believe they created the intel”. You are making a choice not to believe that.
All I can do is lead you to water. What you do with it after that, is your own business. Ok?
Here we go again. another one………
hey… it’s my birthday! today…. no, not telling my age…let’s just say I’m holding at 39 like Jack Benny did!!!
HHHHAAAPPPPYYYY Birthday to you happy birthday to you hhhhappy birthday dear Jaaa-aaaan …. Happy birthday to you ….
Happy birthday Jan. comeoooooon Jan, tell us……………..
Hey SCOTT …. How the hell are ya??
You know … When I do what I do it has nothing to do with changing minds so much as standing up to bullies like DC there … It’s about showing people who are already awake that these guys are all hat and no cattle … It’s about thumbing my nose at the lies … I’m telling you one can argue with rightwinger bush toadies all day and like me it get’s them excited … but me … I just let them spew out everything they have in their arsenal thinking they are winning then I focus them down into the bottleneck of something specific and hold them there no matter how much they want to jump to something else … then I make fun fun fun of how foolish they suddenly sound … that’s what throws them off … that’s what bullies hate … that’s what makes them go away …. The keyboard will always be mightier than the uzi … and it has been ever since the uzi was a sword ….
As far as Bush blaming the “bad intel” goes … that’s like a baker saying … “It’s not my fault the bread was bad … it was the breads fault the bread was bad” …
Bad! Bad Bread! Bad!
Costumer: “The bread you made me from your “special arsenic recipe” just killed my friends and family … someones going to pay …”
Baker: “What my arsenic bread killed everybody … I’ll toss it out immediately and get on the next batch for you right away ….. And to make it up to you I’ll only charge you triple this time ….. heh heh heh”
Costumer: “Ummmmm … ahhhOK see that you do >:( ….”
This scenario is EXACTLY what Bush has done time and time again to you weak willed “it wasn’t THE PRESIDENTS fault it was the intel HE GAVE US” types … Ahhh the power of suggestion … I can’t believe people are really that dumm ….
Hey willy … you should paste this article to your front page for awhile … you shouldn’t let this one fall off into obscurity …
Yeah, I should do that. Maybe I can make a Page out of it and take one of the others up there out.
Hey JD… ohhhh, how nice…. you sang for me…. thank you….
and thank you too Scott for the birthday wishes…. and NOOOOO….. somethings are just too delicate to unveil… and my age is one of them… He he…
Now… has everyone been outside and looked at the moon? Tonight… (only happens every 1000 years?) the quarter moon has two planets right below it (I forget which two planets)… You have to look south west…. before they move away. I saw them and it is beautiful…. The planets glow brighter than the North Star. go look…..
Yeah, I kinda like the look of that. I’ll leave it up here for awhile. good idea
they are venus and jupiter!!!
They converge on what is it Thursday?? Your Right Jan It looks awesome …
I have to ask willy … Is the young lady in that picture flipping us off? ….
Yeah… I like this one on top also…..
Hey… SCOTT…. what do you mean “they converge”… what will happen on thursday?
JD… I just watched your video “Tilt shift trucks”… that was fun…. everything looked like toys…. music was great….
Jan, here is what the government told me about the moon
Venus is in close proximity to Jupiter, and this is causing a gravitional anomoly on youranus.
I actually don’t pick those videos Jan … so far I’m not sure how …. And as far as “converge” goes it means from here they will appear to be on top of eachother ….
No JD, well, I don’t really know.
This pic was sent to me from the Obama campaign. You see, I signed up on their site sometime after May or so; I wanted to be able to compare Hillary’s and Barack’s different Plans, and at that time, to see his website, you had to sign up. (That’s one way he got so many people signed up). And of course they hit me up every week after for a donation, like clockwork. (even after I sent them back the “Fuck You Barack, You Sell-Out Piece Of Shit” article.
I guess they weren’t really listening to “the people” back then either.
So, the original pic was of this girl holdin up a poster that read “I stand with Obama for Health Care”… but the insipid look on her face told me, she had never bothered to read Barack’s “universal” health-care plan, so I did this with it.
Now, you can’t see her hand, so, they probably photoshopped the thing to start with themselves. So I don’t know what the damn thing looked like to start with, but since I have asked them repeatedly to stop sending me stuff, and they do anyway, I figured they wanted me to play around with the image (deductive reasoning).
Sooooo … sheeee … IS flipping us off ….
I think she just got laid…
LOL
Where the hell did DC go?? We weren’t done with him yet …. Were we??
Is he off paying Haliburton to haul sailboat fuel into the middle of the desert again??
“Come back here! We must taunt you, a second time you wiper of other peoples bottoms! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries!”
Hey, niether of you guys told me if you had seen that video put up by David at ADS. Did you see it? It was pro-9/11 investigation stuff, if I am not mistaken.
No I can’t say that I did … What was the title ….
My newest name isn’t working anymore … LOL …. Damn I’m good …. I wasn’t even there this time ….
It was way too long anyway … It made all the articles like two inches wide and three feet long ….
I havent been on ADS.ORG in two weeks. Your not gonna make me go there are you?
JD, remember, huckster just left abruptly, and we never heard back from him either.
I have nothing to say, I just wanted to be poster number 100.
Hawkster … Ya he was probably Chips alter ego … I went looking for him to … He was the Anonymouse poster all that time if you ask me … you notice they stopped posting the moment he started … and then left right along with him ….
Congrats on being #100
You know, i thought Willy would come along, and for meanness, delet it.
He still might. he’s a mean on, that Mr Willy
What are you talking about? Hawkster was poster 100. Or are YOU really Hawkster? Hmmmmmmm???????
I gotta find that video that David put up… damn it. That means I got to go scroll through a thousand damn articles… you know he puts one up every time Obama appoints a Neocon to his transition team… there must be a million articles up there now.
Is a “mean on” kinda like a “hard on”?
ya got me. Bush is the best, the war should go on an on, and all you cowardly left wing pussys need to quite talkin this pussy shit an git down to the recruiters office and git yourself signed up. What r you waitin for? and bld seven DID fall from a class a fire, 9-11 was osama, and saddamm was gittin ready to nuke us and Israel!!!
Yeah it was too late when i saw i forgot the “e” we don’t have an edit ability here.
***Management would like everyone to know that we DON’T have the ability to edit comments here… dispite the evidence to the contrary… just GO BACK TO SLEEP! Nothing to see here… just keep moving along….thank you, the Management. ****
Looks like “the new” Scott has a “mean on” for us leftwing islomofascist/pinko-commie/lovin peaceniks!
It all reminds me of Philip Capatos a Rumor of War: Ambush is killing, killing is good ambush is killing killing is good ambush is killing killing is good
You bunch of morons. Leave me out of this. When you say something worth commenting about, I’ll jump on it.
I gotta go find some work, boys and chickenhawk war mongers. I gotta try and find a way to keep my head afloat till bread costs $134.87 per loaf (my best guess is that should be at about 4:30pm… but I’m not tellin anyone because that might cause a Bread Panic! shhhhh).
Have a good one. And feel free to slap Barton around if he dares show his hampster lovin face around here again.
(pssssst. go buy some bread, plastic, and duct tape… but don’t tell anyone)
Look at that; now Hawkster’s avatar looks like Jan’s. Hmmm, maybe EVERYONE is hawkster!
hey there all you big strong men,,,,,,,,,,,UNCLE SAM need your help agaaan
about to git himself ina terrible jam in a little place called ee-raaan!
1 2 3 what are fightin fer? don-ask-me i don give a damm, next stop is a little eeeraaan
fer you kids not born yet, that was country joe and the fish woodstock, nineteen hundred and sixty nine
when we were in night assembly, i had a batt powered cassett player, an i use to rubber band a mike on one of the tanks radios, and play rock n roll music for the platoon, the vc, and the mamasaans. my favorite tune was Hendrix, ALL ALONG THE WATCH TOWER”
Are you guys trying to make it to two hundred or something??
I am trying to go to ‘Fresh Buzz’…… but it isn’t there anymore or it’s hidden…. I think it’s a government ‘thing’ that talks to Scott.
Darn that orange weed sprouting thing…. I could have fooled you guys except for that. It’s like being implantd with a government spy chip.
Actually while you guys were apparently trying to out comment each other(sorry I missed out … funny) I read back through and found this little tidbit that I had missed before … I must have been working on my post at that moment ….
DCbarton:
“willy,
Let’s see
response #1. Scott, “I am absolutely fed up, totally, with the assholes.” and “Goddam them all to hell.”
response #3. Scott, “The only thing is, with the Germans, you can’t say nothing about Israel. That’s too touchy of a subject for them. So I made no mention at all of Israel.”
response #5. Jan, “Bush and his vampires”
response #20. Greg, “Pelosi and her little band of bitches” and “Reid and his band of ass kissing quislings” (I’m no fan of either, but I would not have called them that)
response #24. Jack, “how come I can’t get a couple of douchebags to come to my blog…”
response #35. Greg, “or were you like those chicken shit chicken hawks…”
response #36. Greg, “you should be proud DC, your blog list would make Hitler’s minister of propaganda, Josef Goebbels, jealous.”
response #45. Jan, “just like a loser…start calling people ‘names’ when they can’t win a fight.”
and lastly, response #44. Willy, “hate speech of ANY kind…”
Gotcha, no hate speech or name calling, unless of course it is from those on the left and directed to the right. You gotta love consistancy, eh?”
That was actually a good point on his part … And I’m willing to admit when I’ve been bested … Good point DC I’ll give you that one ….
Now how about you DC?? Can you admit when you have been bested?
Jan … next time upload a different picture real quick …
Thanks JD….. but that ‘picture’ is a controlled product of the site manager.
I changed mine
(alright. Don’t anybody tell her. God knows what she’ll put up there.)
Kitties ….
Oh, well, don’t anybody BUT JD tell her….. thanks…
did you guys see the heratic post I put up? If you leave a comment on it, you go straight to hell with me.
ah, come on. I don’t want to be the ONLY one goin to hell…
…ah, come on… I thought we were buddies? Whats a little eternal sufferage and lake-o-fire between friends? I would do it for you!
ah fuck it. I gotta go to hell all by myself. shit.
Hell willy … knowing her she’ll use it to make you a busy man here …. you’ll have like ten new commenters all the sudden …. what fun ….
Look on the bright side willy … you’ll get to see Bush getting his ass kicked everyday ….
He he…………. I did it….. but my quilt is too small… when I find the ‘right’ pic, I’ll change it again.
ten commandmants? he he maybe…..
I changed it again…. this image is a small portion of a watercolor I did of a park in Richmond VA. I pretended a younger version of me is sitting on a blanket on the slope.
You can’t see much of the park because I had ot crop most of it out in order to get my image changed. That may be a good thing.
And SCOTT, I finally got to see your model images!!!
That is amazing! such detail…. must have taken ages to have done that….. You had to make all those scale pieces.. the steps , different buildings and metal grids and all that stuff…. no wonder they put it in a glass protective container and in a museum….. it must be at least twenty feet long…
beautiful work!!!
darn it… I think it will show the corect pic now…
Actually Jan, it is 4 feet wide, and 16 feet long (2 4×8’s) It took me just under three months of part time effort. What the photos don’t show is the underground shafts and the neat tractors and grinders that i made from scratch, and weird parts that i collected. Im always collecting weird stuff, always.
the scale is 1/48 for some stuff and 1/50 for the vehicles and impliments.
there were two other guys involved, and they must have built the display case after i finnished. Most of it was scratch built, but i used some ho stuff that i could. When it was all said and done, I ended up with around $200.00 worth of materials that they let me keep. Plastruct abs mostly and i prefer actually to work with styreene plastic, a softer plastic. All the stuff i been doing the last 6 weeks is now completed too, and like willy, im looking for a new gig. the guy paid me off last nite. For my own fun, im scratch building a storefront typ structure.
A year ago i purchased a $250.00 KIT, that when completed, will resemble the ST LOUIS UNION STATION that includes a 6 ft long overhead train shed
where the trains parked on the rail side of the station. Thats probably gonna take some time to construct. It would be nice if the st museum would like to do a rail transportation display. I have several really really nice, really neat passanger trains that could be parked under the shed. I need to spend another couple of hundred dollars for the platforms that go between the tracks. or, i could scratchbuild them from sheet styreene for about half the cost of the kit platforms. Also, the new york central 20th century limited is about to become offered and man, i’de like to get that. That train, beginning in 1948 ran between chicago and new york grand central on a 15 hr scedule. You could not drive that in that time today. I don’t know how they did it.
I love trains… especially passenger trains. the New York central 20th century limited is going to be offered? Does that mean they want someone to build a model of it? and you bid on the job? I hope you get it!!!
Sounds so complicated in what you do. And those clumps of grass growing between this and that,… just like it would be if the buildings were real… I love that….. it looked so real that a person could expect to hear men talking as they head to work…. or the trucks to start moving and loading …. can’t believe you created all that in less than 3 months. You must be very quick and experienced in what you do.
I wish passenger trains would make a big comeback;able to connect to subways so that people could travel between states and go directly into the cities…..
comfortable passenger trains… with dinning rooms and sleeping compartments and magazines…..
Well it was fun while it lasted … I have to sign off again for a while guys … see you around ….
Alright JD. See ya when you get back Winter weather comming so be ready
An Alberta clipper comming through your way
TEST TEST 1 2 3 4 5 TROUBLE SENDING THIS
JAN……..Goggle WALTHERS.COM This is the largest HO 1/87 scale model train supplier in the country. On their front page you can see the 20th century limited and just click on over the picture and that will pull up the info. I have SEVEN different scale model passanger trains. The Chicago Burlington and quincy(C B & Q) California Zephyre, the C B & Q Twin Cities Zephyre, THE C B & Q/ROCK iSLAND Zephyre/Rocket,the GREAT NORTHERN Empire Builder, the NORTHERN PACIFIC North Coast Limited, THE ROCK ISLAND Peoria Rocket and the SANTA FE Super Chief.
Ill forward a couple of photos through Willy.
Hurry back J. Douglas… we’ll miss you.
Scott… I always perfered trains that look like the Great Northern Empire Builder…. the colors I guess. Because it reminds me of the ones I used to ride when I was a child… I don’t know what kind of train it was.
The silver bullet ones are pretty and must be very glamouous on the inside…. I think I rode on a silver one … sometime in 1970…. I think…. can’t remember the exact date.
Thanks for the pictures.
Is the New YOrk Central going to be offered in a model kit? Is that waht you were waiting for? Are the kits real expensive? I guess they are even thugh you do all the work.
Can you remember seeing the circus coming in on a train? I do…. he he…maybe they still do.
No jan. the NYC 20th century will be a ready to run series where one car comes every month. All the pass cars from walthers come ready to run.
that stainless steel tail end dome, in the photo you got, i built that from a flat top observation, and from a dome coach. so i had to do some cuttin and reattaching. so that is a one of a kind and nearly an exact replica. the window arrangement is off a little but i can live with that.
years ago, walthers offered a bunch of circus train stuff, but i was not quite as inspired then as i am now. to do a barnum and bailey train is just a few 72 foot baggage cars. but i could get a little more creative and add several 89 foot trailer train type flat cars with semi trailers ridding on them. but there is no decals and that means i would have to produce them. im too lazy for that.
the value of these pass trains probably is only around $2,000.00 but more importantly, a lot of them i did the paint work. like those two Great northern F-3 locomotives. i did that paintwork and decal work. so that represents a lot of involved time. what will happen when im dead? i arranged for all the pass trains to be given to a close friend who is younger, really appreciates them, so they’ll be cared for. thats what was important to me.
ok well im glad you liked them jan. now, you know what im doin up here im Illinois. Im not just wistleing Dixie.
One more thing Jan.
the locomotive set for the 20th century will be $250.00 digitsl command control ready, and each car ’s price will be around $50.00 except the tail end obs car will be priced at $70.00. now, take 25% off each price, and that is what they’ll cost. One car per month beginning in two weeks.
about $38 a piece (some tax included) add mailing costs and you have an expensive train. How many cars attached? It will be a joy to have.
Scott, I didn’t realize you had created and made those trains. They are beautiful….I am amazed. I thought they were pictures of the real ‘thing’. You are very accomplished and talented with your modeling.
Why not leave them to your children or nephew? I got nothng against your friend but what about family?
Because 1, no kids, 2, no nephews, 3, lack of interrest, and appreciation.
neices will get other things. A $3,000.00 1/87 scale die cast car collection goes to my little brother though.
Well that makes sense. Guess you still have time to make a ’son’…. hey , you have a long time to go.
Anyway…. its nice to have someone who shares your hobby and knows how to take care of your prized items. Guess it is a good thing to have certain things settled long before anything happens….. like getting the dishes washed and ready for the next day. Or something like that.
Now isn’t that great? Those little die cars have really stuck around and people just love them. All shapes and models and colors and custom made ones. They are fun to collect. the detail on them is marvelous. I like the fire trucks ….
I think the die cast and the high end plastic vehicles really contribute good quality to my modelling. What is weird, is, within the last few years
the metal die cast vehicles have come on to the sceene. Their cheaper than the preveious plastic stock was, and, I think, better.
Two photos comming to you via WILLY, OF A VOLLUNTEER FIRE HOUSE IN THE MAINSTREET USA SCEENE. The big pumper is diecast. the ford pumper next to it, and the Ford E-350 AMBULANCE, are plastic.
The yellow tower behind the firehouse? you see it? see the 4 horns on the fire siren? I swipped those things from the DR’S office. I had been wanting to do a CIVIL DEFENSE/TORNADO SIREN, when I saw those, I knew I had there, what I needed. There the gizmos the DR”S use to look in your ears? Worked perfectly for me.
Willy,
It wasn’t weak, it was just pointing out that “hate” is defined by which side one is on. I find all of the items I pointed out to be hateful, you apparently find my rhetorical question to be “hate.” Even Jack was willing to admit I was right on that issue.
Jack,
If I thought I was wrong, I would gladly admit it. Unfortunately, the only time I have ever been wrong was when I thought the girl at McDonald’s gave me too much change, and she had to show me the receipt to prove I was wrong.
Scott,
I would agree that we are probably going to end up in a civil war at some point, the closer we get to full-fledged socialism, the closer we get to that civil war. However, I highly doubt anyone right now is capable of the organization it would take since most people are too wrapped up in their own lives. I know it won’t come from the Left since they tend to believe that the Government should take care of everything for them.
well sir, im on the left, and im ready to move tonite. without any resupply, im combat ready for a good week all out non stop operating independly. and nosir, im not alone. so again, your off base. your miscalculating the situation, and misjudging me. And as James Jones stated in EVOLUTION OF A SOLDIER, i’ve excepted that I wont survive the final outcome, but will help produce the outcome that will restore this country to constitutional law and order.
But rest assured sir, ill never move on my own iniative but on the iniative of those i recignize to possess the legal and moral knowledge to tell me when it’s time.
understand, nothing could please me more than to avert such a terrible situation. Nobody in their right mind wants this. But i detest the way things are, i have absolutely no voice in my government, and although i gave full consideration to leaving this country, I decided because i was born here, i sure as hell dont have to leave, but im not going to just lay down for how things are, but agsi n, i have no voice. so i have decided that when the time comes, I FIGHT! AND FIGHT I WILL.
As i said above, Im no longer interrested in debating the differences i have with you, or anyone else, like you. our political differences are irreconciable.
good luck to you, and to your sons in the comming struggle.
On this subject, i say no more.
SCOTT, I look forward to seeing them.
You stole the ‘gismos’ from your Dr.? LOL You have to be the rascal of all times. I bet all your friends hid all their stuff when they know you are coming over. lOL When you finish creating a new ’set’, everybody rushes to look at it to see if any of their missing items are embedded in your work of art!
YOu are somethng else, Scott… but everybody still loves you….that is great!!!
About that ‘coming struggle’ you speak of…. God help us all.
DCBarton.. if the only thing you have ever been wrong about was some change from McDonalds… then you are the most unique person in this entire world…. they should put you in a sealed glass cage and show you off in a museum….
DC “If I thought I was wrong, I would gladly admit it.”
So the answer to my honest question is “NO” then … Because apparently as always you just haven’t tried to look yet … I personally proved you wrong about sixty times and counting now so far(I’m not even done yet… yaaay!!) and everybody who felt like looking knows it already because it’s all out in the open for everyone to see … in a place where the administrator won’t delete only the parts where I have something to say … Does that bother you
It’s OK DC … you can admit that you have a problem … “MY name is DC and IIIMMM IIINNN CCAAAPPPAABBBLLLEEE OOOFF CCCLLLIIICCCKKKIINNGG LLLIIINNNKKSS … AAANNNDDD RRREEAADDDIIINNGGG TTTHHHEEEMMM … IIIII DDDDOOONNNTT KNNNOOOWWW EEEVVVEERRYYYTTTHHHIIINNGGG”(I said it really slow for you) I think there are groups for people like you … too bad to … what a shame … What a WASTE ….
Well for what it’s worth DC … If you ever do decide to pull your head out of your ass and actually try to listen to someone besides yourself for once … let me know … till then good luck to you ….
I HAVE NEVER, EVER, MADE ANY MISTAKE, IN MY LIFE
I THOUGHT I DID ONCE, BUT I WAS WRONG
Yes Jan, it’s true, im ALWAYS on the hunt, for parts. The little things you might throw away, what you may see as useless, I see as a possible part for a model of a steam turbine generator. case in point, I removed the parts in my kitchen sink airator, and used them on a model of a steam turbo generator. The water still flows just fine.
You see an attatchment for a ear lookinto device, I see a tornado siren horn in 1/87 scale.
DCBarton;
What you are calling “hate speech”, here is in fact not “hate speech”; it’s blowback.
What do you expect, when you come here and chastise people for the views they hold? What do you expect after 7 years of conservative talk radio and talking heads on Fox equating “liberals” with the terrorists? What do you expect when people have been told to sit down and shut up when all they have been doing is pointing out what turned out to be right ll along?
This is blowback, DC. When you insult, oppress, and generally denegrate a portion of the population for years, you can expect some tension when they start to get a voice.
And that same guy you said that agreed with you on that point, also made another good point; he said that he doesn’t go to conservative blogs just to point out how wrong they are, like you are doing here. So you must, in fact be looking for whatever abuse you are going to get.
I know what the definition of “hate speech” is, and this is clearly NOT hate speech.
Go back and have a look at conservatives calling for the arrest of liberals for siding with “the terrorists”; go back and look at conservative talk show hosts talking about killing 9/11 truth advocates; that’s hate speech.
What was said up there? not even close.
That’s right Willyloman…. we aren’t taking any rude remarks anymore without ‘giving it back’…. if he (DC) can’t stand the heat, he should stay out of the kitchen.
Oh yeah, Scott? LOL… your faucet runs fine …OK…. don’t go looking in your refrigerator or radio… all kinds of boxes and werid looking gismos in them….
I’ll check out my area… maybe I got some strange useless stuff…. make a collage out of them … good idea….
And if you want a more recent example, DC, have a look at Bill-O’s recent comment about us “far lefters” being “dangerous” because we think torture doesn’t do America or it’s soldiers any good.
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/jscahill.php?articleid=13863
(but I know you won’t actually check the link out… it’s there for others to read)
willy,
Blowback? That’s all it is? When I look at Scott’s blog posts and see a long list of posts blaming Israel for all of the evils in the world, except for those that are Bush’s doing? That’s “blowback?”
I don’t “chsatise” people for their views, I attempt to engage in debate. There is a difference. I don’t go to only sites that agree with my thinking like Jack does for one simple reason, it isn’t a debate if everyone agrees on every subject. I really don’t care if others agree with me and tend to prefer when they don’t, it makes the converstaions much more interesting. It also shows just how intolerant the Left is when they aren’t willing to debate, they just want the Right to fold and give in to the beliefs of the Left.
I do like your misinterpretation of the Right with the statement,”7 years of conservative talk radio and talking heads on Fox equating ‘liberals’ with the terrorists.” That isn’t exactly what they have been saying, if you bother to actually listen rather than getting your hyper-sensitive feelings hurt. The Right is upset that the Left ignores the threat that we all face from the “terrorists” that want all of us dead regardless of our politics. If you were to bother reading into the history of Islam, you would see that they don’t give a damn about politics. Their goal is the same now as it was in 610AD when Muhammad founded the “religion.” They want only to convert the entire world to Islam or kill all who resist.
Those calling for the arrest of liberals sor siding with “the terrorists” have a good point to an extent. If the liberals are aiding and abbetting the terrorists, or are helping to fight against us, they should be arrested. When the liberals merely argue the points of the war, they are free to do that, but they have to be willing to accept that some of us aren’t willing to watch our children being murdered and we aren’t willing to convert to what we consider to be little more than a “godless” satanic cult, that isn’t hate, it is an opinion based on the study of the foundings of Islam and the teachings of Muhammad.
Anyone calling for the “killing of 9/11 truth advocates” is wrong. However, 9/11 truth advocates are also wrong, it has already been proven more than once that the towers came down, not by controled demolition, but rather, by the heat from the burning jet fuel, which burns hot enough to weaken the steel and cause it to buckle. The way the building was constructed caused it to fall in on itself rather than just fall sideways. Unless of course, you wish to take the opinion of the great engineer Rosie O’Donnell seriously.
I did look at the link you provided to O’Reilly, nice try. It leads to an article about Obama not ending the war in Iraq. Nothing is mentioned about O’Reilly. I tried looking at the other articles listed on that site, nothing about O’Reilly.
As far as “far lefters” being dangerous for not agreeing with torture, that is merely an opinion. I still find it to be hypocritical when you are allowed to have differing opinions, but deny that same right to others. What you call “torture” others call a useful tool for collecting needed intel from enemy combatants. Surely even you would agree that the enemy won’t give any information just because we fixed them a nice meal and said,”pretty please.” At the same time, it is also important to remember that waterboarding has been decided not to be “torture” ands is in fact much less severe than the beheadings that the islamists use. Maybe you feel that it is worse than Saddam’s tactics of rape rooms, drilling peoples limbs, forcing men to watch as their wives and daughters are raped and murdered. Why is that stuff ok when waterboarding is “torture?”
Lastly, I don’t consider what I’m getting as “abuse.” I consider it to be debate, but if you fear debate, we can do it your way and just suppress the First Amendment Rights of any who disagree with you. It does seem to be typical of the Left, not just for the last 7 years, but since they began to come into control in the sixties.
Barton;
This is getting tiresome.
Hate Speech example:
“O’Reilly: Dangerous ‘Far-Left Loons’ Nixed Torture”
http://www.truthdig.com/avbooth/item/20081204_oreilly_dangerous_far_left_loons_nixed_torture/
This was the link that was supposed to be up above. I don’t know what happened to that link; it went to another article I had been reading. Opps.
Your statement that Islam only wants to convert every to their religion or kill all the rest is just too stupid to even talk about. It’s another example of how the demonization of the next “red-menace” has worked on a certain percentage of the population.
The religion of Islam is NOT about killing everyone who doesn’t believe, and I can’t even have that conversation with you. It’s just too stupid and narrow-minded for me to engage. If that’s what you believe, stay the fuck out of this site.
“If the liberals are aiding and abbetting the terrorists, or are helping to fight against us, they should be arrested.” Really? Why do you think “the terrorists” were able to hit the Pentagon with a plane, an hour after they knew a bunch of planes had been hijacked and crashed into other sites? The Pentagon is the most protected Airspace on the planet. Dick Cheney was in charge at that time. The Sec. of transportation went on record saying that someone was giving a rundown, mile by mile of the approach of that plane (”it’s 50 miles out” “It’s 30 miles out” “It’s 10 miles out”) in the control room where Cheney had taken over, before that plane hit the Pentagon… Don’t you find it funny, that while commercial planes were not allowed to fly, President Bush allowed the Saudi Family and members of the bin Laden family to fly out of the U.S. on a couple flights, the day after 9/11? You find it funny, that Rumsfeld announced the 2.3 trillion missing dollars from the Pentagon budget, on Sept. 10th 2001? And lastly, when the Bush family goes to Saudi Arabia, at least they did up until 2001, they stay with the bin Laden family. You know, there is conciderable evidence that they let Osama slip through that mountain pass at Tora Borra, right?
So, who is helping “the terrorists”? Have we got bin Laden yet? Are you starting to see a connection yet, or are you blinded by your faith in the republican party?
I cannot begin to point out the errors in you comments about 9/11.
well, yes I can;
1. Jet fuel burn in an open setting type burn at around 1500deg. The structural steel melts at 2750deg, but loses some structural stability at around 1450deg. But that is internal temp, for a long period of time. The heat sync factor in the steel framing dispurses the heat energy across a considerable amount of steel framing which keeps the internal temps down. Even the NIST report stated that they didn’t find ANY examples of steel that had reached internal temps that were even CLOSE to that temperature. So they’re conclusion is a HYPOTHISIS based on a COMPUTER MODEL, in the case of the WTC towers 1 and 2 AS WELL AS Building 7.
2. No building’s construction would allow for it to defy a basic law of physics, ie; conservation of momentum. Meaning that the structure of perfectly intact building under the site of the plane crash would supply massive resistance to the falling parts of the building above, and therefore it WOULD NOT COLLAPSE STRAIGHT DOWN AS THEY DID, THREE TIMES defying a basic law of physics.
3. Both the NIST report and the FEMA report, clearly state that the jet fuel burned off in the first 10 minutes after the plane strikes, so that they BOTH stated that the temperatures would not have been very high for prolonged periods in those fires, and of course… NO PLANE HIT BUILDING 7 AND THEREFORE THERE WAS NO JET FUEL TO BURN AT THAT TEMP IN THAT BUILDING.
4. The NIST report on the “collapse” of the twin towers, stops at the moment of “collapse iniciation” and therefore doesn’t deal at all with what you call the “structure of the building causing the towers to collapse through themselves.” or however you put it. They didn’t cover that part of the story, because they didn’t want to look stupid trying to argue that point against a law of physics.
5. and lastly, you insulting refer to Rosie O, as if she is the one that leads the 9/11 truth movement. I personally didn’t get into 9/11 research that I have conducted because of Rosi; I started because of the 100s of engineers and architects who have been asking for a new investigation for some time now. over 600 of them, along with thousands of professionals in the industry, professors, researchers, and others (of which, I am proudly one).
http://www.ae911truth.org/
Or the pilots who fly planes like those used in the attacks…
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/
There are lots of people who have first hand experience who stand for the Truth to come out. Like the first responders, the firefighters, who gave testimony, 150 of them, that they heard explosions going off when they were in the building.
So I guess it’s ok if you want to pretend that Rosy O is the only one out there who is demanding we get to the truth about what happened that day. If that is how you sleep at night, ridiculing people all day who want to know who the terrorists really are, like I do. You justify it anyway your partisan ass wants to. But this is science, and physics, and first-hand testimony of the men who ran into those buildings and lived to talk about it. That kind of evidence gets my attention.
You do what you want, but me, I would like those responsible to pay the price. Who ever they are.
Again, if you think that only conservatives love their children, you are a moron. You think liberals want to sit around and watch their kids murdered?
Torture has been proven not to work. The tortured will tell you anything to get you to stop. That’s what they call “bad intel” and I think we have already covered that angle with you here.
The reason I don’t condone torture is a practical one. It doesn’t work; you have to be clever while interogating and find weakness, or the right buttons to push. But, that aside, the reason I don’t support torture, aside from the fact that it is illegal, is because if America tortures, then our enemies will torture our soldiers.
Do you get it? Now I know you chicken-hawk war lovers don’t give a rat’s ass about our soldiers (except for maybe those related to you) but I tend to err on the side that says we should hold to the Geneva Conventions because we don’t want our kids harmed in that way, if for no other reason.
You have a voice hear just like everyone else. I don’t ban your comments, or block you from saying what you want to say.
And though you have gotten kinda close just now by saying that Scott was being anti-Semetic (we have had this conversation), I still allow your posts to go though, because (obviously) I am not “suppressing” what you have to say, in case you haven’t figured that out by now.
Scott, BTW, is not saying Israel is responsible for all the problems of the world. What he is saying is the far right-wing Zionist policies are causing great harm in the world.
And if you think he is wrong, you should read Olmert’s statement from a few weeks ago saying pretty much the same thing. Who is he? He’s the current Prime Minister of Israel.
Well Willyloman, I think you just wasted your energy… but if Barton can’t get his answers from your posting now, he’ll never understand… he has it set in his head that the buildings fell because of fuel heat…. even though NIST disagrees ….
Thanks Jan;
But I didn’t put that up for Barton. I just wanted others who read this who are not commenting to have some real info with real facts and science backing it up… just to counter Mr. Barton’s unsupported claims.
Anyone who is closed minded enough to think that Islam is all about killing everyone who isn’t Islamic, isn’t going to be able to step outside of their preconceived notions long enough to really evaluate evidence and facts. They don’t want to weigh one against the other; they just want their world-view to be “right” at all costs. It’s the exact kind of fanaticism that they are accusing others of having. Like Bill O’Reilly, for instance.
So, thanks. But that was more for people like yourself, open-minded and logical, than it was for Barton there.
It’s a total waste to try to actually debate with any of these people.
They have nothing but total contempt for anyone who does not toe the right wing PNAC views. The last major confrontation we saw was that HUCKSTER. He came around over there at ADS.ORG one day, two days? nothing was resolved and then he vanished. Hell, he may be here observing now, who knows.
Mr Barton came in initiatilly above, at post number 13. He didn’t come in humble and initiate peacefull debate with any questions, he came in in an offensive mode lobing insults and verbal attack. He put all of us immediately on the defensive. It is plain as day that his mind was made up before he fired off his first insult and it is also plain as day he is not interrested in objective open good faith debate.
Now, in Mr Bartons post at 13, he makes reference to the “liberal press”(near the bottom) supressing information after one day on 500 arty shells containing sarin gas but in post number 39 he states the discoveries of these 500 arty shells and drums of chemicals used for CBR warfare were made clasified so as to not inform “the eneamy”. Greg Bacon then points out that these arty shells were alledged to be old and useless and the sarin was inert, and that these old and useless weapons were originally from a lot received from the UNITED STATES. Compliments of Donald Rumsfield, was it Greg? So there is incinsistancies in his alledged debate. It seems more like the usual right wing NEOCON spin.
So why waste time debating anything with these trolls. Willy is right. Don’t waste time on them. Their not here to engadge in good faith debate, their here to attack. And I say that is pointless. I also say, however regretible it may be, lets just get this situation to the level where it is settled once and for all. Fuck all this silly back n forth sissy name calling. lets bust some caps! RIGHT BARTON?……
.
i SAID RIGHT BARTON!!??? WE’LL POSSIBLY SOON SEE THE COMBAT EFFECTIVENESS OF THE LEFT YOU HAVE SO MUCH CONTEMPT FOR, THAT YOU THINK SO INEPT.
You know, I can CLEARY see the parallels between the current political climate to the political climate prevailant in 1861.
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.
I have seen Him in the watch fires of a hundred circling camps
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps;
I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps;
His day is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His day is marching on.
I have read a fiery Gospel writ in burnished rows of steel;
“As ye deal with My contemners, so with you My grace shall deal”;
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with His heel,
Since God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Since God is marching on.
He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat;
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment seat;
Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him! be jubilant, my feet;
Our God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Our God is marching on.
In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us live to make men free;
[originally …let us die to make men free]
While God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! While God is marching on.
He is coming like the glory of the morning on the wave,
He is wisdom to the mighty, He is honor to the brave;
So the world shall be His footstool, and the soul of wrong His slave,
Our God is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Our God is marching on.
I am sitting here singing along with you, Scott Humphrey….
I just watched a documentary about walmart forcing out American industry and jobs….. China is agressively cutting its prices even more in order to cut out our remaining feeble industry. Walmart says its doing America a favor by getting poorer quality products to us at a cheaper price BUT Walmart is making as much as 30 to 80 percent profits on items….. giving us jobs as poorly paid sale clerks…. they say they are giving us what we want. In fact they are forcing us to work for them by closing our industry and forcing us to buy from them because we can no longer afford anything else…. WE don’t have rubbermaid products anymore or RCA or Phillips. Clothes you get at wlamart don’t fit right….. You can try on three pair of jeans (all the same brand and size and style) and they will each fit differently. Walmart tells ameican industry that if you want to sell products through Walmart, then put a plant in China and make it cheaper where young workers earn 50 cents a hr and the China government backs their thriving industry (brought on by walmart)with money grants which do not have to be paid back. So China is backing its industry while we are bailing out our bankers. Once our industry is gone… China’s prices will go up and Walmart will sell them to whoever can afford them… Walmart will die ….. but so will we. Walmart is creating a monster.
It makes me mad……. maybe Walmart is our true enemy. We need our industy back and American products and American jobs.
Also, Scott I commented about the Obama birth certificate item you referred to. About 126,000 people have signed a legal request for an investigation into Obama’s legal birth certificate. Seems a lot of people are concerned about it.
Funny, I don’t shop at WalMart, nor do I work for them. It seems a bit ill-informed to state that they make us work for them or buy from them. We make choices as consumers and that drives the business. Also, I take particular care to minimize my ‘made in China’ purchases. Specifically, I never buy food products or dishes from China.
I recommend laying aside the suffering victim approach, and taking clearly thought out action.
I havent been inside a Wallmart in at least 6 years. But the fact is, there is no where to shop for anything that isn’t manufactured in China.
Jan, where is that comment ref the Obama birth certificate. I have forgetten. There is so much shit going on from so many different directions, I can’t keep track anymore.
Scott, go to the following web page and read about the proof as it stands in some people’s eyes.
http://lamecherry.blogspot.com/2008/08/proof-barack-obama-birth-certificate-is.html
The article that talked about 126,000 people signing a legal petition to investigate Obama’s birth certificate was on the front page of MSN about two days ago. I did not keep the ref to that. They want to ‘Halt’ the nomination of Obama to president.
this is another web that gets into the technical details about the border… doesn’t match with any year…
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/07/atlas-exclusive.html
I found a web that talks about the petition… Nov 21… seems it was ’shut up’ … can’t find any newer info on it. Or I just can’t find it.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=81550
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