by Scott Creighton
When those “progressives” of you out there refuse to entertain the notion that John McCain’s service record is far from “heroic”, I want you to understand just who it is you are helping. I will give you a hint; it isn’t Obama.
This is a mash-up of the corporate media’s vicious and unwarranted attacks on Gen. Wesley Clark for his comments on John McCain’s military record. When the corporation’s mouth-pieces all launch simultaneously in the same direction, from CNN to Fox News, with nearly the exact same talking-points, you can pretty much bet that there may be something more to the story that they don’t want people to look at. So that is what we are going to do now.
Story; “John McCain was a fighter pilot.”
Fact; No, in fact he wasn’t.
“A fighter pilot is a military aviator trained to engage other aircraft and typically pilots a fighter aircraft. Fighter pilots undergo specialized training in aerial warfare and dogfighting (close range aerial combat).” Wikipedia.
John McCain flew A-4 Skyhawks almost exclusively for his entire military career. the A-4 is a light bomber aircraft, also known as the “Tinkertoy Bomber”. This is what he was in when there was the accident on the Uss Forrestal and this is the kind of plane he was flying when he was shot down and subsequently captured.
There was only one confirmed air to air kill involving the A-4 during the entire Vietnam War, and that was on May 1, 1967 by by LCDR Theodore R. Swartz with an unguided air-to-air missle.
These are not “fighter planes”, they are bombers. And John McCain was a “bomber pilot” not a fighter pilot. This is what John McCain, the “war hero” did in Vietnam before being shot down and, according to his own testimony, cutting a deal with his Vietnamese after 3 days in captivity.
So, during the Vietnam War, we dropped Napalm, White Phosphorous, and Cluster Bombs on military targets as well as civilian ones. Of that there is no doubt and no argument. And this is the extent of what John McCain did during the Vietnam War. In the past McCain himself admitted to dropping bombs on civilians.
“I am a war criminal,” he confessed on “60 Minutes” in 1997. “I bombed innocent women and children.” Common Dreams, here.
There will be more articles to follow on this discussion. Later we will delve into the John McCain war hero and American Patriot myths.
But suffice to say now, that while it may be very difficult to defeat the “image” of John McCain in Nov. it would certainly not be hard to defeat the real John McCain. And that is why the corporate media launched a “shock and awe” style attack on someone who had the nerve to even call any mention of his record into question.
John Kerry was forced to allow the media complete access to his military records when he was running for office. To date the US Navy has only released 19 pages of what appears to be over 600 in his military file.
“If you saw or heard headlines like MSNBC’s
Navy releases McCain’s military record
Unadorned paragraphs bestow some of nation’s top military honors
reporting the story by JIM KUHNHENN, Associated Press Writer, you might believe that the Navy has released McCain’s military records.
If you do, you would be wrong. The main stream media propaganda being what it is you would be understandably wrong but still wrong.” , from Daily Kos, here.
John McCain worked feverishlyto prevent the North Vietnamese from releasing their records of the POW camps as well as the debriefing records of all the returning POWs. When the POW_MIA movement was attempting to find missing soldiers after the war McCain worked to suppress their access to any records about the camps. What exactly did McCain have to hide?
“For example, all the Pentagon debriefings of the prisoners who returned from Vietnam are now classified and closed to the public under a statute enacted in the 1990s with McCain’s backing. He says this is to protect the privacy of former POWs and gives it as his reason for not making public his own debriefing.
…debriefings from returning Korean war POWs, available in full to the American public, have provided both citizens and government investigators with important information about other Americans who went missing in that conflict.” Sydney Schanberg
This is the real John McCain, boys and girls, and yes, this kind of information is critical to his eligibility for the highest office in the world. Ones performance during military service is a clear indicator of how the individual will hold up under the pressure of the White House and if McCain is less of a hero than everyone would have us believe, shouldn’t we know it now?
Filed under: Campaign 2008, the real john mccain | Tagged: bombing vietnam, Campaign 2008, john mccain
So we have a man pretending to be a war hero and a man who has never been in the service…. really good picks for a president who will be at war the minute he is elected… at war with bankers and global giants…. what kind of man can handle them?
The one without Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and a horrible temper? (McCain)
The one who is already well respected around the world? (Obama)
Hmm, #2, you make it look as if McCain *doesn’t* have PTSD and a horrible temper.
My dad flew the A4 and it is as much a fighter as the F15 and F16(which I flew) that came later.
All A4 pilots went through the same dogfighting training that later F15 and F16 pilots were
exposed to. All modern fighters are designed to carry bombs and be able to fight there way to the target. Had he flown a B17 you could call him a bomber pilot, flying an A4 makes him a fighter
pilot. It was THE fighter of it’s day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-4_Skyhawk
The A4 is as much of a fighter as the F16? Uh… …no.
Yes, the A4 is classified as a ‘multi-role fighter’, but let’s not kid ourselves, OK?
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft_comparison_detail.asp
Amanda:
If it was “the fighter of the day” how come there was only one confirmed kill with a A-4 through-out the entire Vietnam War? In fact, I don’t think they were equiped with guided missles. And they are listed as “Light Bombers”.
“My dad flew the A4 and it is as much a fighter as the F15 and F16(which I flew) that came later.” Really?
“The McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing) F-15 Eagle is an all-weather tactical fighter designed to gain and maintain air superiority in aerial combat“ wiki on F-15
“The Fighting Falcon is a dogfighter with numerous innovations including a frameless, bubble canopy for better visibility, side-mounted control stick to ease control while under high g-forces, and reclined seat to reduce the effect of g-forces on the pilot. It was also the first fighter aircraft deliberately built to sustain 9-g turns. It has a thrust-to-weight ratio greater than one, providing enough power to climb and accelerate vertically – if necessary.[7] Although the F-16’s official name is “Fighting Falcon”, it is known to its pilots as the “Viper”, Wki on F-16
“Skyhawks were the Navy’s primary light bomber over North Vietnam…”
“The Douglas A-4 Skyhawk was an American attack aircraft originally designed to operate from United States Navy aircraft carriers.”
“Ground-attack aircraft are military aircraft designed to attack targets on the ground and are often deployed as close air support for, and in proximity to, their own ground forces.” Wiki on A-4 aircraft and “attack aircraft” link.
Ergo, per your suggestion of checking with Wiki, the A-4 is NOT the same as the F-15 or the later F-16 which were desiogned as “Fighter Aircraft”.
Bombing innocent women and children? That already qualifies him to be the next president – at least these days. What a sick country!
I respect war heroes for their heroics during the war, but what does that have to do with governing a nation of 300 million people? The skills you need for the job are communication, vision, negotiation, an ability to choose the right staff and to delegate to them, and a good b.s. detector. The willingness to risk your neck for freedom simply has NOTHING to do with what makes a good president.
Andrew Jackson: great general, lousy president. Ulysses S. Grant: great general, lousy president. Eisenhower: pretty good general, ordinary president. Washington: lousy general, okay president, did his country a huge favor by refusing to run again.
I’d rather have a Lyndon Johnson — effective politician — than a Jack Kennedy — war hero.
Sending him in with his previous records of trashing planes almost looks like they were begging for something to happen to him. Wasn’t his father a somebody in the military? I hope that more people become enlightened about the man before time to go vote.
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_mccain_lost_five_u.htm
He suffered because he served his country. You can’t leave that alone?
Obama never was willing to serve his country. He has no military record of service.
You would believe POW records of the Vietnamese? You sound like a democrat. They always look for dirt that is not there.
I am an undecided voter. However, how you can split hairs over whether or not McCain was a fighter pilot or not is incredible to me. The facts are that McCain served his country well and at the risk of his own life both during his missions and during his time as a POW.
The missions he went on might be open to moral questioning all these years later, but bare in mind that McCain was not setting policy. It’s really too easy to sit back in your easy chair now bogging away & re-intrepreting things to fit your own current world views.
What you are doing here is the as disgracefull as what the Bush people did to Kerry regarding his service. Until you have actually served (and I have not btw), you should think twice for questioning how brave people were or weren’t who actually have served.
All that said, completely agree being a war hero does not in any way shape or form qualify you to be prez.
Good day,
Tidewater Jackson
http://www.fullcontactsports.com
Amazing what the Left communists will try and do to defame a war hero.
Another load of unmitigated bullshit from the usual suspects.
Americans will choose between a legitimate war hero with years of experience and a slick-talking Chicago-machine Harvard lawyer with no military experience.
We all know who will win.
McCain was beaten so badly by the VietCong that he can not raise his arms over his shoulders. His legs were busted up so badly he still has trouble on stairs. Get over it. Grow up. War is hell.
We had rules of engagement in that war and the Cong did not. Anything they wanted to do was ok.
How would you like to step on a pungi stick someone had pissed on or worse to make sure you get infected and lose a foot or die.
It amazes me that people who have never had to suffer, fear for their life or do anything for the collective good of all like serve in the military can be so pompous and opinionated. Do a better grade of drugs man!
To Commentator #12: to have an opinion different than yours is my freedom of expression. To call someone a communist because they difer from you is an example of you being a communist.
Hey, Alex…. up on # 8…. you have a strange mixed up knowledge of history…..
<Hey, John boy Davis, you must have been drinking a little too much of the pride of St. Louis when you made this completely off the mark comment about John boy’s busted up arms:
McCain was beaten so badly by the VietCong that he can not raise his arms over his shoulders
That’s one of the bigger loads shoveled onto the ‘Net this weekend.
McCain’s arms were busted up because he didn’t follow the directions when engaging his ejection seat.
He didn’t tuck his arms in and they both got busted up due to John Boy’s negligence, not the North Vietnamese beating on John Boy.
Besides, why would the Viet Cong want to bust up one of their favorite song birds, who was given the nickname “Canary?”
And yes, that was John Boy McCain singing like a canary to his Vietnamese captors so John boy could get special treatment.
“Please save my ass and I’ll sing all day long, this Canary will”
That’s your John Boy McCain. An American bird known as the “Canary.”
“Sing another song, John Boy. Pretend we’re the North Vietnamese and tell us some military secrets songbird!!!”
People talk about his temper but his voting record on veterans rights is what really should be looked at, since he’s supposed to be the fiery maverick who loves the troops so much. More info on FrankenCain here.
http://warofillusions.wordpress.com/2008/04/18/buyer-beware/
Politics makes strange bedfellows! Always has and always will. You either love ‘em or hate ‘em -either of the candidates, depending on your frame of reference-be it democratic or republican. The candidates pasts are immutable. What they did is a ‘done deal’ and part of their personal history. McCain served his country and served it well. You can argue about the plane he flew till the cows come home and it still won’t change that. It’s a fact and a matter of record. He served his country, he put his life on the line, he was a prisoner of war and lived to tell. Did Obama? Smoke and mirrors and casting aspersions on McCain isn’t going to give Obama’s military (ahem) record any credibility since he doesn’t have one and that too is a matter of record. Like it or not McCain IS a war veteran and Obama is not. Why not focus on something important such as the issues of today rather than ancient history. Leave that to the historians.
You are without a doubt, certifiably nuts. You would rather entrust this great country, of which you are a citizen, to a complete amateur. An amateur who was brainwashed in a Muslim school as a young child. An amateur who has a record of doing absolutely nothing for his State or Country. I recommend that you purchase a quran and begin to study because you will no doubt be in the jihadic army fighting off the infidels (your neighbors). I wish you and your ultra-liberal friends good luck.
No one likes a war, but when a government provides an army for the purpose of our defense, and men like John McCain are valiant enough to become apart of that army (airforce, whatever) then they are heroes. I would like to see you walk in his shoes. What kind of “deal” would you make with the likes of a captor and how fast would you make it? I’m sure that you who are free to speak ill of any soldier would sell us out in a New York Minute.
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As an Australian, it really shows the patheticness of America when people need someone to serve in the military before becoming a president. A President should not have to be a warlord. It shows that your country is going to continue attacking other countries forever if every President you elect has to be qualified to lead a war.
Considering America is so religious, you would think that more compassion and humility would come into their foreign affairs.
Yo number 13. This one is for you!
I personally am not questioning whether McCain was a war hero or not, hell in fact I believe anyone who served time in the war and was force to kill and watch their buddies get killed is considered a war hero. But that crap about how American had rules of engagement and the Cong didn’t. Hey do you know how many instances of innocent civilians being raped and killed by the American soldiers, you would be surprised buddy?? Just cause you had rules didn’t mean you were better, hell I think its worse if you have rules and broke them anyway. It was war, both sides did what they could to win, that is ANY war on the face of this planet. So I don’t think anyone has a right to question each side for their tactics for winning (i think any of them on both sides are considered evil but again they were trying to win so I can’t really question it).
And the General was right, Getting shot down from a plane doesn’t necessarily mean you will be a good president. I mean if so How about I get on a plane and let someone shoot me down. Getting shot down and being captured makes you a war hero, sure. But since when does being a war hero automatically make you a great president? I think people are giving the General a little too much crap for speaking the truth. Its politics guys, both sides have the right to say their arguments, last I recalled this was a democratic nation, no??? Isn’t it our right? And I believe the General was just trying to make a point, I did not hear one word of McCain not being a war hero. He was just stating what he lacked.
And Now i am prepared to get flamed by all the stubborn minded people out there.
The fact that he flew a fighter bomber as opposed to a full fledged fighter is null. The fact is he was shot down and taken prisoner.
OBAMA,WAS DUMPED BY HIS OWN MOM.READ OBAMAS OWN MOM DUMPED HIM .THE GLOBE JUNE 23,2008. His Mom at the age of 18 while attending the University of Hawaii’she became pregnant by fellow student BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA.She dropped out,and MARRIED the 24 year old son of a wealthy KENYAN RANCHER.that WAS SHORT LIVED WHEN ANN found out he had another wife,and two more sons OBAMAS 1/2 BROTHERS IN AFRICA.Next married an Indonesian geologist named Lolo Soetoro,and moved with him,and 6-year old Obama to JaKarta,After several years in Indonesia.his mother uprooted him again,and sent the 10 year old Obama to Hawaii to live with his grandparents.Where was he born?KENYAN AFRICA,OR HAWAII.before,or,after Hawaii became a state,IS OBAMA A U S OR WHAT?????????? WHERE ARE HIS ROOTS REALY FROM???? AS YOU KNOW HE IS A FLIP FLOPPER.
“You would rather entrust this great country, of which you are a citizen, to a complete amateur. An amateur who was brainwashed in a Muslim school as a young child. An amateur who has a record of doing absolutely nothing for his State or Country.”
here here. the worst part about obama is that HE HAS NO EXPERIENCE IN ANYTHING. i would take experience – be it not the tall tale paul bunyan type experience – over none at all. the largest issue facing the US into this election is foreign policy. as of yet, obama STILL has yet to develop this most crucial aspect of his campaign. must be the lack of fortitude that tells him to continue to sit on his haunches about it – same as he did with his choice to keep fat and happy at home while his peers made the choice to serve. hmm, coincidence?
Calling John McCain a “fighter pilot” would be roughly the same as calling John Kerry a submarine commander. Yes, Kerry was the commander of a vessel during the war, but they are two seperate things.
The reason for the “talking point” (calling McCain a “fighter” pilot) is obvious: it has a stronger connotation than “bomber pilot”, especially given what we all kow about the Vietnam War now.
These people don’t re-invent someone all at once; they do it one line at a time; one exageration at a time. Then, before you know it, we have a totally different history about the man.
It’s like what the Fox reporter said about McCain having “chairs broken over his shoulders for 5 years”… that is born of her hearing stories that make McCain the most tortured man in US history. Which of course is BS.
We need to be able to honestly look at his complete record, good or bad, before we hand him the keys to the kingdom here. We need to see his full military record, not just 19 pages of it.
Why should he or any of his supporters have a problem with that?
I don’t understand how telling the truth is belittling McCain.
It’s sad that in this Nation the truth is no longer honored.
I am proud of what McCain did, however it alone does not qualify him to lead the country.
This is an exciting election isn’t it?
Smiles,
Donna
Just the fact that McCain served in the military during a time of war makes him a war hero in my mind, and about any other American who honors the service these young men and women do for this country so idiots like you can sit home and write such a stupid blogs and try to distort the truth. You should be happy that because of our military you now have the freedom to spread your hateful thoughts. You really are searching for stuff when your main argument is whether he was a fighter pilot or a bombing pilot. Come on, he was shot down and held captive for years.
It just shows how desperate the left has become.
Emuleman:
“so idiots like you can sit home and write such a stupid blogs and try to distort the truth.”
right, because Vietnam ws all about stopping the communists from taking over and fighting on our streets…
…the only problem? We lost, we left, and there were no communists coming over here to fight on our streets.
So please explain to me how soldiers dying in Vietnam made it possible for “idiots like” me to sit and home and blog.
Please, be my guest.
” You should be happy that because of our military you now have the freedom to spread your hateful thoughts.”
Well, who sounds “hateful” here? And while you are at it, explain how dropping fire bombs on villages in Vietnam provided me with “freedom”.
For that matter, explain how the “shock and Awe” in Iraq in 2003 provided me with “freedom”.
You should try to look beyond the talking points. There is an entire world out there you seem to be missing.
Besides, all I am doing is giving the man credit for what he actually did. How is that “spreading hateful thoughts”? Is that the definitiion of truth these days?
Refusing to release McCain’s FULL military record, and fighting tooth and nail to keep people from asking about it shows desperation. Not this.
“For that matter, explain how the “shock and Awe” in Iraq in 2003 provided me with “freedom”.”
question: are you able to post complete and utter nonsense, because you can, because there are no governmental restrictions on this kind of free speech (save slander and libel, but, you know, a law is only as strong as the people enforcing it)? has any of your property been seized? have you been bereft of the means to protect yourself?
simply, are you breathing? are you alive?
the case is rest. one certainty remains – we’d all been dead or taken over (the united states of allah) if a mealy-mouthed limp-wristed man such as kerry had taken office.
Mplimasol:
Wow, did you drink the Kool-aid, or what… jesus.
“one certainty remains – we’d all been dead or taken over (the united states of allah) if a mealy-mouthed limp-wristed man such as kerry had taken office.”
taken over by whom? al Qaeda in Iraq? they were not in Iraq, before Bush lied to get us to bomb them.
News flash! Iraq had no “weapons of mass destruction. No “smoking gun will be a mushroom cloud”… it was a LIE dear. Get up to date. They barely had an army and the ones they had surrendered immediately during the first few weeks.
So, who exactly would have made this “the united states of allah”?
“bereft of the means to protect yourself”? You mean like when Blackwater went into New Orleans and took peoples legally registered fire arms when they needed them the most to protect themselves from looters?
You mean like that?
Lay off the Kool-Aid and Fox News. It’s diminishing what’s left of your capasity of rational thought.
John McCain is a war hero, okay, just get over it. Does that qualify him to be president, no, okay, just get over it. But it says something about him. He is also one of the most experienced men in Congress. Does that qualify him to be president, no.
He is more independent than some independents. that doesn’t qualify him to be president either.
What qualifies him to be president is that he was born an american, PERIOD. This doesn’t mean he’s the best man for the job, but with his main opponent having the most liberal voting record in the senate, it sure helps.
Then i guess you wouldn’t mind calling for McCain to release his full military record, like so many republicans did when Kerry was running for office.
That should clear up this whole “hero or not hero” thing right?
I am for McCain releasing his war record. That will give the liberals more drivel to pick on like the model of his airplane. Is it important? I guess it is when the opposing candidate doesn’t have a war record, nor any working record to speak of.
As far as I am concerned, I want the war to end, but I want it to come to our shores. It will be fun to watch the libs complaining about the gun control laws that keep them from getting the weapons they will want to defend themselves. Oh, I forgot, the libs don’t shoot, they talk. Well I’d like to see them talk with the zannies and get them to go home.
mplimasol—
As a recent veteran, I must ask you, have you yourself ever served in the armed forces? I did five years in the Army and nothing pisses me off more than the chicken-hawks like yourself who have the temerity to criticize someone for not having served in the military or gone to war when they themselves have not. If you picture is any indication, you’re fairly young, at least in your twenties… As am I. Which would make us peers, so do tell me — have you served as I, your peer have?
Let’s be clear here folks — some of the most idiotic people I have met in life are still serving in the military at this moment. Trust me, you would not some of these people leading the country simply because they wore the uniform. Does it help if one has served in the military? I think so. However, the we must look at the content of their character while in the military and then examine the merits of them serving as our chief executive. To do otherwise is to invite disaster.
Wearing a uniform does not make you an expert in national security or military affairs as millions of dead soldiers could have told you. Being wrong for forty years doesn’t qualify as experience but merely a reputation of repeating one bad year 39 times. Being an elitist beer heiress hubby with seven mansions who is 100% handicapped and receiving $58k/yr in disability payments and known as the cover up expert for the party whose ambition can’t allow him to admit he’s too old for the job equals how to milk the government tit while professing patriotism and pushing the corporate agenda just so he can call himself president and go down in history as the policy empty ego maniac fooling all the voters with a wave of the flag. Heroism will never fade but heroes do very quickly.
Golly! Yes, well, a couple of points, if I may. First, I would point out that if war is be avoided at all costs then a military man is the last one you would want as POTUS, simply because he is conditioned to believe that war is a valid and viable solution to a given foreign policy challenge where a man less steeped in those traditions might be less tempted by them, but that would not explain GWB.
On the other hand, it could be argued that a man who had seen the horrors of war first hand would be the most reluctant to go back, which is why Kerry was actually the first choice of Americans in 2004, but that does not explain the battle-ready McCain.
In regards to McCain being a hero, doesn’t being shot down, taken prisoner and blabbing all and everything in the hope that dadd might spring you make one something of a failure? And a traitor? I mean, it’s not as if they waterboarded him, is it? And even if they did, even McCain says that’s not torture.
However, what is most striking about the Republican’s reaction to the questioning of McCain’s war record is not the double, or the triple, but the quadruple standard they manage to apply, to whit: Bush went AWOL, went out of his way to avoid the draft in Vietnam, but that doesn’t matter, while Obama is pilloried for avoiding going to war when there was no actual, um, war to go to; McCain apologists say that the fact that McCain served is enough, you $#^* little ^*(^$#, how dare you question a man’s service to his country etc etc (Cont. P 94) while conveniently forgetting that this Modus Operandi was not only perfectly acceptable but actively encouraged when Kerry was the target. How quickly we forget.
The bottom line here is the Dems are quite within their rights to demand full disclosure of McCains war record and to pick over it as they see fit, and the Republicans are more than welcome to be careful what they wish for.
Cheers
Elroy
My husband is a decorated Viet Nam veteran, he saved many lives while putting his own at risk. Many Viet Nam veterans know the full story about McCain, which the media is ignoring. Please check the website ‘Viet Nam veterans against McCain’ for just a small amount of the real McCain. For information about Obama’s heritage, please go to ancestry.com where you will find the family’s roots going back to the 1700’s in Ireland, he was I believe brought up in Kansas. If you are really interested. Please do the research, don’t listen to the smears.
What the hell does McCain’s wartime status have to do with him running the country ?.
It’s unfotunate he was shot down and captured (although being there is the first place was an outrage and as he said-he bombed innocent civilians) but that has no bearing on his ability to run the USA.
Those who think it does-where were you then when a real war hero John Kerry was running for president uhh? How come you voted for George Bush who had no experience in war rather than a man like John Kerry who saved the lives of his own men, fought in battle and was wounded.
You are simply hypocrits !
It’s truly nice to see people standing up to the Limbaugh / Hannity regurgitators. On a side note, I always hear that Obama has never done anything. If you believe that it’s obvious that you heard it on Hannity and have never taken the time to find out for yourself. You may not hear about it in the news, it may not get alot of coverage, but he has done plenty. And he appears to have a heart and morality (wierd traits for a president). But he also doesn’t tolerate crap, as seen in the primaries. I think he will make a great president. Maybe afterwords we can afford a nice meal and a tank of gas!
To Emuleman @ 10:50am: Wait a minute. The right is protesting the left questioning whether or not McCain is a war hero or a patriot?
Clue to Emuleman, the hypocrites on the reich sure as hell didn’t mind swiftboating war veterans Max Cleland, John Kerry or John McCain in the past.
Oh but now that one of them is YOUR candidate it is forbidden to delve into McCains military history. Sorry…when a candidate for president is using his military experience as part of his presidential campaign his military record is fair game.
Is McCain a war hero? I don’t know or care because that does not automatically make him presidential material, a military expert, nor does it make him the cadidate who will keep America safe.
The truth about McCain is that like Bush, he got where he is today mainly due to his father and grandfather who were both Admirals in the Navy. He was near the bottom of his class as a student at the Naval academy.
So what if Barack Obama never served his country in the military, neither did Dick Cheney OR George W. Bush, Bush couldn’t even finish his service in the National guard.
People question Barack Obamas lack of experience in world affairs, how much experience did George W. Bush have? Bush surrounded him self with experienced people and look where that has gotten this country.
John McCain as president would be the death knell for this country
as he wants to continue Bush’s perpetual and phony war on terrorism, continue tax cuts for the elite, is completely clueless about the economy, IS TOO OLD and has a bad temper.
What a CROCK of shit this blog is. Kerry was all about being in the military and went as far as to say, I am resporting for duty. So, its ok to say military phrases and pretend to love America when its a Dem, but to be a Pilot, and to be tortured for 5 years, you have to find BS points like fighter and bomber pilot. To HELL with all you Dems!!! To HELL I say!
RepublicanMan;
“To HELL with all you Dems!!! To HELL I say!”
Well, if McCain wins in Nov. we won’t have that far to travel, now will we?
(besides, my argument relly isn’t with McCain… it’s with the media that keeps mislabeling his years of service. they got the POW part right, so why not his service duty?)
If Jimmy Carter II gets elected [Obama] we will all be in Hell.
I can’t understand what point in all the symatics of fighter vs bomber pilot. He was in the Navy, he did serve his country, DID YOU?? Obama didn’t, how about a column on the lies he is telling in his ads, saying he voted to help people to get from Welfare to work. I am voting for Bob Barr in Nov, and I am a Republican, but smear blogs like this one, makes me sick.
Republicanman;
I think you have made my point for me. Calling him a bomber pilot rather than a fighter pilot, seems to make all the difference in the world to you. Maybe, just maybe, that’s why the MSM calls him a “fighter” pilot. has a grander “ring” to it, doesn’t it?
“He was in the Navy, he did serve his country, DID YOU?? Obama didn’t, how about a column on the lies he is telling in his ads, saying he voted to help people to get from Welfare to work.”
love love LOVE this quote. this seems to be the crux of the issue that everyone – especially willyloman (sorry, dear corruptionist) – is avoiding. and why avoid it? because it turns their arguments into water. they will (another commenter alluded to this previously) focus on ONE little error and blow it way out of proportion because they feel that it overcompensates for a candidate that, simply put, doesn’t stand a snowball’s chance.
if THIS is the best you can do about mccain, i don’t even have to vote. it’s already won.
thanks for the lulz.
gotta lay off that kool-aid.
and trust me, I am just getting started on McCain. You can expect to see much much more.
In fact,mplimasol. since you asked, I can do even better with just the click of a button.
Wanna see? Check the time stamp on this comment, and then check the front page of this site.
This little blast from the past is for you Mplimasol. Keep talking. There’s more where this one came from.
Just wait till we get the testimony from his first wife. Oh that is just beautiful stuff there.
There is something about this campaign that I CAN’T seem to understand. Obama is the media darling, loved more by Keith Obermann than perhaps his own wife, he just won the Dem’s nomination with a huge turnout and yet he still is only leading the polls by at most 6 points? Ok Mccain is not loved by the Republican rank and file or its base. Oh no, not by a long shot. Yet, he is being attacked by blogs as not being a fighter pilot vs a bomber pilot? Is the Dems so weak after Bush that they can’t blow everybody’s second choice as Republican nominee out of the water?? My God man, we have done all we can as a party to help your side win in 08.
Do you fear people will get to know the real Obama before Nov. Not the slick preacher type who gets you all excited wth words of “change” but lets his minions do his dirty works so all you end up with is just another dirty politician who would sell their mother to get elected? Its ok, that the author of this blog is gonna continue to post his crap about Mccain, hey men fought and died to give you a voice. So go ahead, but know this, Obama will be exposed before October as what he really is. The facts have been hidden by the flash of his bullshit. Those days are soon to be over.
@ commentator
Your right, we do know who’s going to win. Everyone is tired of stupidity, and that’s why it won’t be McCain.
@ Willylowman
You must be fucking cross-eyed. look over Amanda’s post and see where you went wrong… The only important part of her post was the suggestion that they went through the same training. I assume that would make him a rather capable fighter pilot, and you should have addressed that in your reply, rather than returning to something that’s really just a technicality if Amanda is correct. I don’t care much about the validity of this article. What difference does it make if he was a “fighter-pilot” or a “bomber-pilot” he still went out there to kill and there are countless soldiers who regret the things they had to do to survive during the war. The only thing I would be interested in is the full military records if indeed you are right and they actually have not been released. But I don’t put much faith into poorly written, poorly researched nonsense. I’m not voting for McCain, but I still had to let you know how wrong you are.
@ RepublicanMan
look up.
If you think you are a conservative then I guess you should n’t vote for McCain or O’Bama.
@ Michael
I didn’t vote.
@ Uncle Fester
I agree with you. Anyway the president should consult with other war heroes (Generals) before making war decisions. It’s too bad that Colin Powell retired.
@ commentator
You’re right, we do know who’s going to win. Everyone is tired of stupidity, and that’s why it won’t be McCain.
@ Willylowman
You must be fucking cross-eyed. look over Amanda’s post and see where you went wrong… The only important part of her post was the suggestion that they went through the same training. I assume that would make him a rather capable fighter pilot, and you should have addressed that in your reply, rather than returning to something that’s really just a technicality if Amanda is correct. I don’t care much about the validity of this article. What difference does it make if he was a “fighter-pilot” or a “bomber-pilot” he still went out there to kill and there are countless soldiers who regret the things they had to do to survive during the war. The only thing I would be interested in is the full military records if indeed you are right and they actually have not been released. But I don’t put much faith into poorly written, poorly researched nonsense. I’m not voting for McCain, but I still had to let you know how wrong you are.
@ RepublicanMan
look up.
If you don’t think you’re a democrat you shouldn’t support one.
@ Michael
I didn’t vote.
@ Uncle Fester
I agree with you; Except there is no right and left in this election. Anyway the president should consult with other war heroes (Generals) before making war decisions. It’s too bad that Colin Powell retired.
Jackass;
His full military record has not been released.
And the difference between “fighter pilot” and “bomber pilot” is the connotation it carries. that is WHY all the MSM talking heads have been given that identical talking point.
The “liberal” press as well as Fox News.
I clearly showed Amanda doesn’t know what she is talking about; “the fighter of the time” was not the A-4 it was the F-4, and there were plenty of air-to-air kills in Vietnam to prove that.
The fighter pilots of that war knocked down some 300 MiGs. What they did and what McCain did during their service is vastly different.
I don’t care what you personally think about this article, but to me, the truth matters, even in the littlest things.
So, jackass, what I have written is correct. What you hear on TV about his military career isn’t. Now, if you can do better research than that, jackass, or if you can show me where I am wrong in the work I have done, I will gladly make a correction. Until then, you’re just spouting an OPINION based on TALKING POINTS, and yes, that would in fact make you a jackass.
My wife sent me this piece on Senator John McCain and asked me to comment. John McCain, as every can read in this piece was of course not a Fighter Pilot. Further, he was not a Bomber pilot as stated in the piece. He was, in the parlance of that war, an Attack pilot. Bombers had a designation of ‘B’ in front of the aircraft’s numerical designation, such as the famed B-52. There were also B-57s, B-26s, and so on. All with the mission of Bomber. McCain’s aircraft, the A-4 Skyhawk was an ‘attack’ aircraft (hence the ‘A’ in front of the A-4). If he flew fighter aircraft, the Skyhawk would have been designated F-4, but it was not. There were indeed F-4s in the Vietnam War and it was a rocket that lit-off from an F-4 Phantom on the deck of the Uss Forrestal which hit the fuel tank of an A-4 Skyhawk that resulted in the largest loss of American life in any one incident in the Vietnam War. LT. John McCain of course was involved in that fire as he was sitting in his A-4 on the fight deck awaiting the launch order.
McCain’s missing during the Vietnam War was air-to-ground Attack. He was told to attack a ground target and usually flew to it, pointed his aircraft toward the ground, arrived at a certain point over that target, released his bombs, and if lucky, few back to the carrier, safe and sound. He of course wasn’t so lucky on his last mission and as we all know, got shot down. As I understand, that crash was number four of five in his flying career.
In what I’ve learned about flyers, and Navy flyers especially, the Attack guys were looked down on by the Fighter guys. Fighter pilots felt that it took real guts to dog-fight with an enemy Fighter and, well, anyone can drop pieces of heavy iron into the mud. I agree with Clark in that dropping iron into the mud isn’t a requirement for President. Even Bush was trained as a military pilot, not even a Fighter pilot, but an Interceptor pilot and look how he handled the Presidency…
CAN DO!
Dave Schill
Vietnam 1970-71
mplimasol—
I see you seem to be personifying the very concept of chicken-hawk. You’ve never served in the Armed Forces, yet you’re content to come on this board and somehow make it out that Barack Obama is wrong for NOT having served. A hypocrite and a coward. Sign up for the military. They need young folks like yourself — especially since you’ve drank so deeply from the well of propaganda.
Hell-o-o-o!!! WWI — President Wilson (Democrat, Not a veteran), WWII — President Roosevelt (Democrat, Not a veteran; was Assistant Secretary of the Navy under Wilson), conclusion-WWII — President Truman (Democrat, veteran), and Korea and the start of the cold war. Viet Nam — President Kennedy (Democrat, decorated veteran), Viet Nam — President Johnson (Democrat, Not a veteran). Viet Nam and the Fall of Saigon — President Nixon (Republican, veteran).
So exactly how does being a Republican and/or a veteran automatically qualify a person to be Commander and Chief? How would it guaranty a ‘win’ or a viable outcome?
My dad was a Naval Officer in WWII and would never have been so presumtuous nor pat himself on the back like McCain’s grandstanding.
We can conclude one thing, being a neo-con and a chicken hawk (Bush Jr) is clearly a mismatch for Commander and Chief.
“…being a neo-con and a chicken hawk (Bush Jr) is clearly a mismatch for Commander and Chief.”
That’s the best quote I have heard all day. Thanks.
A “war hero”?/???? Is there such a thing anyway? this aint the days of Ulysses. Dropping bombs and chemicals from high in the sky on innocent People?
I know, it is a shock when we read something entire at odds with all the brainwashing that we undergo here in America. But really, a “war hero”? How? Why?
It is widely known that the war in vietnam had absolutely nada to do with Amwrican security, so why this charade? Wake up, it is Okay to admit m=being misled and wrong. And then work for justice.
A hero is someone demonstrates extreme loyalty, courage, or bravery against the odds. John McCain fits that description, or do you not know about him being tortured as a POW?
Jen; Where do you live? Where did you go to school? Did you ever pledge allegiance to the flag? Do you have a speck of respect or love for your country? Perhaps you were brought up to be socialist? There is nothing I can imagine that has twisted your brain into thinking the way you do. Wake up and smell the threats against you. Perhaps we fought a war that would have been better to stay out of, but wouldn’t it be best if we stayed out of every war? If we had done that, you’d either be speaking Nazi today, or you’d be ashes.
Heroes are the brave soldiers that we send in to these situations regardless of whether they believe in the effort or not. Just think of what would happen if every soldier we sent into a situation decided to take it upon himself to do it his way. Learn Russian, Chinese, or Arabic girl because with your kind of thinking you will do better than you will with English.
By the way, there are several countries in the world whose constitution forbids going to war. They are Germany and Japan. We helped them write their constitutions after too many “heroes” shed their blood. I’m sure those countries would welcome you with open arms. I’ll help pay for your ticket, one way.
By McCain’s own admission, and the admission of hundreds of others, when there was a change in leadership in N. Vietnam, there also came a change in the treatment of the POWs.
True, McCain was tortured, and for suffering that he deserves some respect. But he was not tortured for 5 1/2 years; he had been captured for only 2 before that change in leadership that he himself said in an interview, kept him from being tortured again.
Your comments, GrumpaJoe, are indicative of the problem we face in this country. “Where did you go to school”. Yes, we were not taught the truth of what our soldiers do in war. All soldiers. I daresay I know a great deal more about horrors of conflicts, ravaged upon various citizenry, than you by the US, Germany, Japan, China, N.Vietnam, S. Vietnam and many many others. call it a morbid hobby.
Perhaps your lack of curiosity has left you with only part of the real stories of recent wars. Not all of us suffer from that ailment. Some or us understand that there is more to life than just accepting what they try to fill your head with; the pretty pictures of America where we are always right and just in every conflict. But, the truth is usually harder than that, and harder to come by.
It is a pleasant myth to think of every American war as being godd vs evil. Vietnam was no exception. But listen to the words of our soldiers as they returned. Many said we were fighting “the wrong Vietnamese”. many said they had just been sent there to “kill poor people”. And now we have recently seen the evidence of mass graves in S. Vietnam. Tens of thousands killed by the dictator that our “heros” helped prop-up. We had no business there, and Grumpa, your childish parroting of the politically correct spin of that conflict does nothing more than to serve the interests of the war mongers here at home.
You see, democracy can never be born of ignorance; and it cannot live without sunlight. So, yes, we have been taught lies about past conflicts and our “heros” roles within them. Some soldiers behave with honor and heroicly. But they do so, not as a whole, the do so on an individual basis.
To lump them all together and blanket them all with hero status insults the ones who deserve it.
John McCain is not one of those.
And if Jen wishes to take you up on that offer so that she can see other countries, other lifestyles, I will be glad to pay for her return trip.
We need more curious and intellectually honest citizens in this nation. And fewer “yes men” like yourself Joe.
Willyloman;
So what are you going to do about changing the world? Vote for the man who promises change, but has shown nothing in the way of accomplishment that would suggest even slightly that he can lead. If you were a true American, you would run for office and put your brain into gear toward a useful end. Instead, you write this tripe on your blog to incite us into a riot. How different is that from a horrible war? You are playing with mens minds. Get off your soap box and find a job to keep you busy.
You have shown me that you have no conception of the meaning of hero, nor do you want to know or recognize true heroes.
Grupmy;
Well, if you were to take a look around the site here you would see that I don’t put allot of stock in either candidate and I hold them both up to the light so to speak.
I think the way we fix this is to demand absolute honesty from all our candidates, politicians, judges, ect. That’s a start anyway.
As far as accolplishments are concerned, I wonder if mcCain’s graduating 5th from the bottom of his class is one either. Or maybe those 22 hours of combat he saw in Vietnam would qualify him; dropping fire bombs on villagers (his own admission. see his interview). Or how about the fact that McCain agreed to talk after only 3 days in Vietnam captivity, if he were taken to a hospital (he was the only American POW in Vietnam taken to one). Do those things make McCain a hero? Clearly it isn’t me that needs to re-evaluate my definition of the word.
In this day, it takes about 100,000 dollars to run for dog-catcher. Perhaps I would run, if I were born in a wealthy family with a silver spoon up my ass. But no, I am just little old me.
WillyLoman:
None of us are heroes yet all of us are heroes in someone’s eyes. With the amount of gumption you have and the intelligence you possess you could surely find a way to run for an office. Look at what Sarah Palin achieved in running against the Republican party on her own. She didn’t have the proverbial silver spoon up her ass, but she had a notion that she could help her community and went and did it. You can too.
” She didn’t have the proverbial silver spoon up her ass,”
You are right about that. She is (regardless of what party you or I belong to) one of the few examples of someone successfully running for office who is outside that political mainstream or super wealthy to start with. You have a point there.
“… but she had a notion that she could help her community and went and did it. You can too.”
That is something I will have to give some thought to. You may have yet another point there.
WillyLoman:
If you can see it and believe it youncan achieve it.
You are a wise man WillyLoman.
I’ve learned more reading though this blog — and doing my own dd, than anything in the msm.
I like McCain, read his books, and would feel relief of knowing an adult was in the White House.
I’ve also read Obama’s books, and have done a bit of research into his academic background and life story. I’m convinced that, 50 or 100 years from now, if Obama is elected, he will be perceived to be as great as — at least — Roosevelt (the 2nd) for his ability to manage the country though our multiple multiple-overlapping crises. Most people who have his ability to step back and intellectually digest conflicting information have no interest in going into politics; he is a gift we can accept or not. McCain reminds me of Eisenhower, who had a steady hand on the tiller in a relatively black&white era.
Making best use of both men’s talents and abilities. I would like to see a President Obama select McCain as is secretary of defense. And won’t be tremendously surprised if that happens.
Dream on Richie;
John McCain is not the politically correct color to be seleced by the Messiah.
If McCain were a democrat, Fox “News” would be “Swiftboating” him 24 / 7:
“All he did in his military services was crash 5 planes and get caught. Not one confirmed kill!”
“Did McCain betray American while in captivity? And which football team did he really name?”
“Has McCain been brainwashed by the Vietcong while in prison?”
“What psychological damage does he suffer from his time as a POW?”
Of course, only the republicans or Fox are mean spirited enough to pull this crap. Anyone who participated (or believed) the Swift Boating of Kerry should be ashamed. If the Dems had any balls they’d be doing the same to McCain. The Dems will never win until they’re willing to stoop to the crap pulled by the Republicans…
Oh, and if Sarah Palin was a Democrat? Fox would be asking “If Sarah Palin can’t keep teenage boys out of her teenage daughter’s panties, how’s she going to keep terrorists out of America?”
I believe this is called “exaggeration to an extreme degree”. Why pick on Fox News? What about them is so biased. Yes they have Sean Hannity and Bill O’Reilly (who is often fairer than many staunch Republicans would like), but they also have Bob Beckel, and Alan Colmes.
Your bias far exceeds anything even Sean Hannity has put out.
“If the Dems had any balls they’d be doing the same to McCain.”
Glad to see that you would be willing to take the high road if what you say was actually true.
Solar1 –
You must be high…What’s so bad about Fox? Go here at watch a few videos — evidence from their own mouths: http://foxattacks.com/
b
Solar1 — also go back and see which news organization led the shamefull / fact-less charge against John Kerry. It was the republican’s who fostered those Swift Boat idiots, Republicans who wore mocking purple heart bandages at the convention — evan after Kerry stood on the stage with every surviving member of his crew who validated his story. Kerry’s “error”? Speaking out against the war when he returned — a right he definitly earned. Why can’t you repubs ever hold one of your guys accountable? Is it because you believe your party generally / infallibly better than the alternative Democrats? You hypocrisy and lack of memory astound me…
Oh, and if Sarah was a democrat? “Sarah Palin: If she can’t keep teenage boys out of her teenage daughters panties, how is she going to keep terrorists out of America.” — Lead story on those idiots in the morning Fox and Friends…
umm obama isn’t a war hero because there was no wars when he was of the age to go and become a part of the army, this gave him no reaseon to join it. Plus i agree with poster 8 saying that most war heroes don’t make good presidents. Mccain may have been a so called war hero but for 20 hours of service he was given more “awards” then people who were in service for 7000 plus hours. and in most cases mccain had it better as a prisoner of war then having to go and fight in the barracks like so many others had to do. He got better than normal care as a POW becuase of his dad being an influential admiral so they thought he was valuable. He also sort of betrayed his country by telling his capturers things about the plans of the usa to attack a power plant and etc. also i think sarah palin is a flop as a vp. first she is governer of alaska(the most useless state ever), and she think she has expertise in foreign communication(or something like this i don’t remember what she exactly said) because alaska is so close to russia(who lives in siberia in North East Russia;nobody how can she say she knows anything about foreign policy), plus mccain doesn’t even know her, she is a publicity stunt saying whatever mccain and his advisors want her to say.
Brett; You impress me with your insightfulness and enlightened views on this matter. I believe Obama would be a conscientious objector if he were ever to be in the service. Or, maybe he’d be streaking toward Canada to answer the call.
You mean like draft dodging Cheney and Bush? How many differments does it take to get to the center of a Tooties pop… the world may never know…
We’ll have a chance to find out if he ever becomes Commander In Chief. Scary isn’t it.
Religious Right Republicans call anyone who doesn’t agree with them as Communists or Socialists. Got bad news for you guys. John McCain did serve his country, but he also collaborated with his “Communist Captors”. Yes, he was subjected to torture, but by his own admission “he broke”. He did about 32 propaganda features for the Communists. He is known by some of his fellow POW’s as “Hanoi John”, “Song Bird”, and “the Manchurian Candidate”. Imagine voting someone into the highest office in the land who was “Brainwashed” by the Communists. A Communist Mole just biding his time. I am a Veteran and I am disgusted that this Bozo is called and considered a “War Hero” after betraying his country in a time of war. His father-in-law is a criminal who served time for a underworld figure named Kemper Marley. Cindy’s wealth is directly attributed to this association. We have Gordon Liddy, who adores Hitler and what kind of ideals did Hitler subscribe to? We have General Singlaub, who ran “Death Squads” in Nicaragua targeting anyone he considered a “Communist”. And that was all before his association with Keating. If this election is a testament to judgment and character based on past associations. Then MCain has some questions to answer also. Oh by the way, I forgot to mention McCain attempted “Suicide” twice, while he was a POW. Does this sound like the actions of a man fit to lead this great nation? I suggest you take an in depth look at McCain’s past. Ooops, I forgot, NEOCONs can’t handle the truth when it is one of their own. One thing I have learned in dealing with people, the one’s who complain the most and the loudest, are the one’s with the most to hide.
Apurple1;
Thanks for that. I have been calling for mcCain to release his full military records like they forced Kerry to do, but McCain and his camp refused.
They staged some thing where reporters could come into a room for a brief time with no recording devices or even pencils, and “view” his complete records that they padded out with 1500 pages of reviews they added about his medals. It was a joke.
Full release of this man’s military records MUST be called for.
Thanks again.
I’m more interested in BO releasing his college records. What is he hiding? The Arab who paid his tuition?
You really should try and remain current Grumpa…
didn’t McCain just rail on some supporters who were pushing the Obama is an Arab thing?
and speaking of college records, I would love to see just how McCain ended up 5th from the bottom of his graduating class. that is some feet when your daddy is an admiral and his was one as well…
He ended up on the bottom of the class for demerits. Small things like unshined shoes, messy quarters and late for formation.
Willyloman;
McCann is afraid to call a spade a spade. BO has strong Arab affiliations. Face it, he is what he is.
the a-4 aircraft are designated attack aircraft providing close air support to the ground troops as well as other multi role attack missions . the a4 also carries sidewinder and or sparrow AIR TO AIR Missles ,two 20 mm cannons . our squadron would deploy to luke air base and fly against f-15s on acmr ranges and train w/guns against towed targets-fighter training. it is an attack aircraft but does have fighter capabilitys ,,as far as obama, illinois isnt doing so well. thanx to all the veterans who have served and sacrificed on our behalf.
I have a great deal of respect for those that serve and have served. Though I don’t agree with the politics of some of our past actions across the globe, politics are separate from the men and women who put themselves on the line. That said, John McCain was not trained as a “fighter pilot”. There many “fighter” class planes in use during the Vietnam War and many fighter pilots got kills during the war. John McCain however was not one of them. Though the plane does have some capabilities designed into it, that would make it capable of defending itself in such a situation, the a-4 was designated a “ground attack” vehicle, and that is what McCain’s missions were about. According to John McCain himself, he never engaged another pilot; his missions were targeting ground installations, military and civilian, and that is what he was doing when he was shot down, at the end of his short career, and then captured. So, since that is what he did and what he trained for, I stand by my initial statement: John McCain was NOT a “fighter pilot” and to pretend he was does a disservice to fighter and ground support pilots everywhere.